What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[RivkahChaya]

Why should she have removed her rings? Or all her belongings for that matter? And if you have a ring on and I want it I'll have it. Seems not a large task for one who just murdered someone. And, I wonder if the lack of blood in the body might have aided a stubborn rings removal?

There's a "trick," if you will, to removing a correctly sized ring. You have to push it up on the fat pad on the underside of the finger, and then pull it over the knuckle.

A women living on my floor in a building in Manhattan had a fight with the guy she was engaged to, and he tried to pull the ring off her finger. It didn't come off, and because he wrenched her finger and it started to swell, she then couldn't get it off. There was screaming and thudding against the walls, and I ended up calling 911. Someone else used bolt-cutters to get the ring off, and then the boyfriend tried to sue her for the devaluation of the ring, and in the meantime, she had a restraining order against him.

I covered that in my previous reply. Given that the post-mortem occurred almost 20+ hours after her last probable connection time, given a quick wipe and time passing, it is entirely likely there would have been no evidence of sex to be seen. Which is not to say it hadn't been had.

No ejaculation doesn't mean no penetration. Some men can't, umm, finish, if they're nervous, and maybe he withdrew on purpose. I don't know why, since it wouldn't be for birth control or counter-forensics.

I don't know much about how syphilis spreads, but if it's anything like HIV, it's really difficult for women to transmit to men; however, one way men can "get it" from a prostitute is from her servicing more than one man in an evening, so technically, an earlier client is giving it to a later one, the woman is just maintaining the viability of the infectious agent, which wouldn't survive in a colder, drier environment.

Since Mandy Patinkin's departure, I tend to agree.

One more TV show that can survive without Mandy Patinkin.

[Michael W Richards]

I would say that there is far more evidence that the killer of Polly, Annie and Kate sought satisfaction from mutilating sexual organs rather than from any conventional sex act, therefore its not surprising that there is no evidence of "connection" in these cases. I would also add that the only case where any evidence of connection would not be identifiable would be with Mary Kelly.

When a purely speculatory explanation for these crimes is favored over analysis of the investigative data its hard to imagine that anyone will solve anything to anyones satisfaction. Ive been a proponent of some kind of standard of proof regarding the assimilation of possible victims under one killer, yet many people still seem to prefer to believe in boogeymen.

There has been many offhand dismissals of others who have put forward ideas that do not follow the traditional serial killer of the Canonical Group mantra without any recognition of the glass house that premise is. Its a guess....and some of you have taken it as gospel.

Well...it just goes to show you that having a belief in something can cloud the ability to properly understand what the actual truth is....and people who believe in the serial killer of the Canonical group share a great deal with people who believe in Bigfoot. Or the Yeti. They will choose to believe what they believe no matter what the evidence doesnt state clearly.

If you believe in the serial killer of five...then you do so without any real evidence to support your argument. Thats a fact. Once you face that fact then perhaps you would be more generous to those of us who prefer proof over mere belief.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Bored of the Rings

Extracts from evidence presented at Inquest of Annie Chapman as reported in the The Times on various dates:-

Dr George Bagster Phillips "There was an abrasion over the ring finger, with distinct markings of a ring or rings"

Eliza Cooper "That was the last time she saw the deceased alive. At that time she was wearing three rings on the third finger of the left hand, Deceased bought the rings, which were brass ones, of a black man. Deceased had never possessed a gold wedding ring since witness had become acquainted with her. She had known witness for about 15 years....."

Edward Stanley "He last saw her alive on Sunday, the 2d inst., between 1 and 3 o'clock in the afternoon. At that time she was wearing two rings on one of her fingers. One was a flat ring and the other oval. He should think they were brass ones"

The Coroner (summing up) "There were two things missing. Her rings had been wrenched from her fingers and had not since been found, and...."

"...and the theft of the rings was only a thin veiled blind, an attempt to prevent the real intention being discovered."

Leaving aside the Coroner's somewhat skewed conclusions regarding motive, what's left in dispute about the rings? They were there (whether two or three), they were probably brass or something equally cheap, they were removed, in all probability by the killer and they then disappeared from view, (unless you credit the refence to two brass rings being found in Tumblety's effects)...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

inter-femoral

Hello CFL.

"But apparently the usual method for this style of prostitution was NOT penetration, but the woman using her thighs to get the guy off."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

The saga of John and Kate.

Hello Barbara. Thanks.

"Yes, but I cannot think of a proper title or first question.

Care to have a go?"

The saga of John and Kate?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Dave.

"Leaving aside the Coroner's somewhat skewed conclusions regarding motive, what's left in dispute about the rings? They were there (whether two or three), they were probably brass or something equally cheap, they were removed, in all probability by the killer and they then disappeared from view. . ."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Hello CFL.

"But apparently the usual method for this style of prostitution was NOT penetration, but the woman using her thighs to get the guy off."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

That's correct, and syphilis, and gonorrhea were unheard of

[RivkahChaya]

OK. Here's the question for the deity, time-traveler, or what have you, without asking for the actual identity of the killer, but trying to get at what we're all wanting to know:

"May I please have a list of all women willfully murdered in London in 1888-9, color-coded, or otherwise grouped, so that the ones killed by the same person, are together? While you're at it, if any of those groups, in order to be complete listings of one person's victims, should include any men, any people killed any other years, or in other places, or even maybe some other species, you could put them down as well."

We really need a list like that before we state definitively who the Ripper's victims were. If Stride was killed by someone else, but the other 4 canonicals are still a group, so to speak, then I think we are still talking about one Ripper. If it turns out that Nichols and Chapman were killed by one person, and Eddowes and Kelly by another, it's my personal feeling that the one who killed the first two women is the original Ripper, because it was at that point that the police had the idea they were looking for a serial killer, even if they didn't use that term.

If Nichols and Chapman were killed by two different people, there's a difficulty. Who is the actual Ripper? It would probably depend on other things, for example, if Nichols were killed by someone who never killed again, while Chapman's killer killed the other canonical victims, and maybe more after that.

We may never know. It's almost easier to go back to calling them the "Whitechapel murders."

On the other hand, things happen. If you don't know about the Bobby Dunbar case, it's about a boy who was lost, them found after being presumed kidnapped, and returned to his parents, in 1912-3, many years before the double helix was even discovered. In 2004, tests on his son's DNA, and his nephew's, revealed that the court that had supposedly solved the mystery when it awarded custody of him to his parents had made a mistake, and instead had done what was essentially a judicial kidnappings from his real mother. Bobby Dunbar (original name, Bruce Anderson), died in 1966, and probably never dreamed there would ever be a way of demonstrating one way or another where he came from.

So who knows what science there may be in 20 years. Or 50. They found Richard III, scoliosis and all, after all.

[C. F. Leon]

I'm no expert either in these matters. However, I know full well that prostitutes can indeed be raped, and I'd bet the anus was also checked out by the doctors for signs of penetration. Plastered men tend not to rise to the occasion so to speak, so it's wise perhaps to leave them out of the equation. The thing is none of the canonical five showed signs of penetration, and there are documented cases of serial murder where the act of murder, and mutilation, is sufficient for the perpetrator to "get off". It's not unreasonable to speculate that JTR belonged to this group of killers.

Regards

Observer

That's perfectly possible and I think likely. No evidence for it, though, except modern 'profiling'.

However, no matter what 'Jack's' ultimate intent may have been, he would have had to 'play the game' enough for the victim to have been drinking with him and then 'lift her skirts' with no more than the usual suspicion (and that more likely about being paid).

Do we know how 'the deal' was usually made? Was the hooker paid before the act? Then they pocket the coins, but I would think most would attempt to have SOME sort of security to keep from being robbed (yes, the next class up probably had pimps to take care of such, but what did these lowest level do?)

[DVV]

Should be just time to understand that the serial killer we call JtR has killed at least the C5.
I know we are showered day and night with cryptic posts that deny there was ever a serial killer in the East End 1888, but this is grotesque, and will ever be so.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"None of the Whitechapel murder victims had signs of recent sexual activity."

Absolutely. Polly admitted to having doss money 3 times the day of her death. Yet her thighs were clean. Obviously (well, if Oram is to be believed) she had washed. Her new lodging house seemed adult enough.

I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?

[Observer]

Hi Jon

I was waiting for your reply to the above post, as I was wondering the same thing. Why were Eddowes, and Stride held as examples of non penetration, when in fact none of the five showed signs of penetration.

It all stemmed fro the following exchange

Hello Ally. Thanks.

"why precisely are you so determined to propose alternate scenarios to the most probable fact: That the women were soliciting when they were murdered."

Quite likely for Polly and Annie. We have their hints in that direction.

Liz, less likely--but possible. It would be more likely had those "sightings" been definitely of different men.

To speak in general terms, does it bother your investigatorial side that Liz and Kate had no signs of having had recent sexual activity?

Cheers.
LC

So it appears as if Mr Cates deemed it a hindrence to the investigation that we should consider that Stride and Eddowes showed no signs of recent connection. Why on earth he should contemplate this notion is beyond me.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

fiction

Hello David. But surely not as grotesque as the case has become with all that ripper rot?

Time to understand that it is fiction.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

answered

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?"

I thought I had answered that one? Try post #209.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?"

I thought I had answered that one? Try post #209.

Yeah, I had seen that reply, thanks. But still wondering why you just picked on them two? No worries.