EU Vote

[Mayerling]

The point I bring up Fleetwood is, how that midland industrial worker majority is going to follow it up. They will have to vote to change the state of the leadership of at least Labour, and more than likely the Tory and Liberal (is it that now) parties to mirror themselves to reverse these trends. And I suspect it won't work.

Problem is voting results are based on sets of different groups who coalesce on an issue or a political race for a wide variety of reasons. In short the votes on any election are coalition votes, and are subject to not lasting forever. Because the next major vote may actually benefit some of these same groups (with others that lost in this particular election) against other groups voting in the majority here, with others who were in the minority here. It turns like that everytime!

Economic demands by one set will be disliked by another set - and they both may be in the same economic class. Take a vote on a government sponsored program of road and rail repairs and modernization, which bypasses some regions in favour of the others. Or a concentration (given the possible renewed threat from Scotland for independence) of placating Scottish nationalism by greater expenditure of revenue from the same North Sea Oil money that is at the root of the planned nation-state rebuilding. But that would take large sums away from projects in the midlands or in Wales. It's easy to see how this would work out.

Yes, the leaders of the nation and the parties are hypocritical b*st**ds, but it has always been so - and not only in Britain. Whatever Frau Merkel's views on helping immigrants in Germany, few will reside in her residential area. Right now I am watching a crooked, stock jobber and self-proclaimed business genius (who boasts of being worth billions, which he is not) facing a woman who has been considered having questionable business dealings in the past with her husband, and whose husband loves to give "pep talk" speeches at two to five million dollars (or yen or sen or euro) a pop! It's actually no better in Putin's Russia, where the government is hardening into an unreasonable facsimile of what it was when "Uncle Joe" was in charge, except Vlad does like the strains of supercapitalism flowing in, and feathering the nests of himself and his acolytes. Same thing in the former Communist China too! So Fleetwood we are all within the same boat.

At times I am tempted to yell "workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains!" Then I realize that today, Karl Marx would probably be on the large scale lecture circuit, be a talking head for Murdoch's Fox network and other stations around the globe, and would have a great income with his series of sequels to the original unfinished "Das Kapital".

Jeff

[Graham]

I see that the Liberal Establishment is pondering whether to ignore the result. And of the two major party leaders who accepted the result, Cameron is gone and Corbyn is about to be removed by pro-EU stooges.

And lovely little Ms Sturgeon could scupper the whole sorry mess - and I hope she does.

Graham

[Robert]

I see that the Liberal Establishment is pondering whether to ignore the result. And of the two major party leaders who accepted the result, Cameron is gone and Corbyn is about to be removed by pro-EU stooges.

[Graham]

That may be your reality where you live, but believe me a lot of people up here took this as a chance to settle a few scores.

Then perhaps they should have put their money where their (big Northern) mouths are at the last General Election!!!

Why do you think there is such a vast social difference between where you live and where I live?

Graham

[Fleetwood Mac]

With reference to Fleetwood Mac's marathon post, why are those who claim to represent the honest and unstained British Working Class so naive? The simple fact is that the majority of those who voted to Leave did so because they want an end to uncontrolled immigration. Politics as Fleetwoood Mac seems to believe had sod all to do with it.

Graham

That may be your reality where you live, but believe me a lot of people up here took this as a chance to settle a few scores.

[Graham]

With reference to Fleetwood Mac's marathon post, why are those who claim to represent the honest and unstained British Working Class so naive? The simple fact is that the majority of those who voted to Leave did so because they want an end to uncontrolled immigration. Politics as Fleetwoood Mac seems to believe had sod all to do with it.

Graham

[Robert]

Worth bringing this up again :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTr8IVWBuPE

[Fleetwood Mac]

To Wickerman

Are you saying we will be better off out the EU?

Cheers John

I think there is a point being missed here.

For a lot of people, ‘better off in the EU’, ‘exports and imports’, ‘the economy’ are simply vague notions that happen to other people.

Many of the people who voted leave have far more pressing concerns than that, such as their day to day lives. And, up here in the old industrial heartlands people don’t have that much to lose anyway.

Let me tell you something:

I grew up in a mining village in County Durham during the ‘80s. The sort of place where everyone knew everyone, where crime was virtually zero bar the odd drink driver, where doors were unlocked, were on New Year’s Eve people waltzed into other people’s homes for a drink uninvited and it was expected, where we had galas for the community on a regular basis. We didn’t have a pot to piss in but we were happy with our lot and respected our neighbours and our community.

So, what did our arsehole government do? They shipped in problem people from places such as Leeds and Nottingham into our community. People who couldn’t respect their own communities. I should add at this point that these people were white before someone screams: “RACIST!”

What happened in a short space of time? Burglaries started happening. Doors were locked when previously they had been unlocked. Trouble started happening on New Year’s Eve and a tradition of house-footing that had probably been going on for centuries died. Our community changed.

That was my Mam, my Dad, my Grandma, my Granddad: their day-to-day lives changed by people making in decisions in London with no consideration for us.

What is the point of this? The point being that many of us here are sick to the back teeth of these people making decisions that impact upon us with no regard for us. Cameron, Corbyn, Blair and associates wouldn’t live next door to problem people; nor would ‘the bankers’; nor would the middle class left-wing luvvies who wouldn’t know hard times if it smacked them on the back of their heeds.

This resentment has built up over time. We had to watch them making fraudulent expense claims paid for by the average man on the street when many up here are struggling to make ends meet. We’ve had to watch them force us to bail out the banks on the back of their own mismanagement. Places such as Middlesbrough, Rochdale and Oldham have had to watch them place asylum seekers on their doorsteps when these places were already struggling with high unemployment – Cameron and associates wouldn’t live next door to an asylum seeker – not in a million years – nor would the middle class left-wing luvvies who talk a good game but retire to middle class suburbia surrounded by white faces talking utter shite about ‘the economy’ and ‘race relations’. Definitely a case of what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.

So, forgive us if many people up here woke up on Friday with a feeling of smug satisfaction. Working class people don’t tend to vote in great numbers at the general election because Labour or Conservative won’t make much difference to us. But this? This was different. We had a chance to tell our political elites with their grand plans to go and get ****ed.

It wasn’t even a vote against the EU for many of us; it was a vote against our political elite, most of whom backed staying in the EU, and were complicit in making decisions that benefitted them at our expense.

I am a little bit nervous of what the future holds as in my heart I want this country to prosper, but I am so pleased and proud that after all of these years of being shafted by the people who run this country that when they got the chance they said: “have that, wankers”.

And, so what if a few people from JP Morgan or wherever lose their jobs. They’ve never considered us.

[Wickerman]

To Wickerman

Are you saying we will be better off out the EU?

Cheers John

Better, all depends on how well Britain negotiates it's future with respective economies. There are two roads to follow, one within the EU, and one without. Britain has been down both roads and from what I recall both work well enough at the economic level.

It's what you make of it that matters, not what politicians say.
Once in power the elected politicians will make it work, regardless which road they are on.

[John Wheat]

I was too distracted with other events in my life in the mid 70's, but wasn't this when Britain joined the EU?

How bad was life before we joined, I don't think it was bad at all, not the least that I can remember.

To Wickerman

Are you saying we will be better off out the EU?

Cheers John

[Robert]

Svensson, has it not occurred to you that arm-twisting goes on behind those closed doors? In any case, I don't trust our pro-EU leaders any more than I trust the EU, so either way we're better off out.

Are you sure there isn't anything in the Svensson marginalia about an EU army?

I see that the EU army isn't worth talking about because there's no point in looking that far ahead, but you're quite prepared to speculate on what will happen in the second half of this century, i.e. 2050 - 2100. What you say shakes me to the core. Cameron said we'd have World War Three if we left. It looks like we'll get World War Three if we stay. You can't safeguard peace by creating superpowers. All that you'll do is ensure that the wars, when they come, will make the Second World War look like a playground fight.

No, I haven't linked to Breitbart. This is the paper in question :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Europe_(newspaper)

Well, the Germans may eventually lead an earth army. Unfortunately they'll invade a supermassive black hole and get swallowed up.

[Fleetwood Mac]

this wasn't consciously chosen with anything in mind. Just being the devil's advocate here.

So, there was no substance behind your point. That's fine.

As for Germany:

Germany will be the dominant partner in Europe whether they want that role or not. It is inevitable that the country with the strongest economy in Europe will play the lead role. This isn't an anti-German thing, in fact you'll find that of all the countries in Europe Germany is the one that garners the most respect in this country.

It is simply inevitable that such a country will take the lead role, and we have seen this in relation to Greece.

We don't want that. It could be Switzerland, France, Italy, Germany or whomever else; it's simply not for us. It's not healthy to have a highly centralised state governing over millions of people from disparate nations. In fact, it is a recipe for trouble.

We simply do not see it like you. Europeans tend to think such a centralised government is some gateway to world peace. We think the opposite.

[Wickerman]

It looks like Britain is out the EU for good. That's what the people voted for and that's what there gonna get. Wether it's good or bad remains to be seen. I think it will largely be bad. But there is no going back now and I don't see the point.

I was too distracted with other events in my life in the mid 70's, but wasn't this when Britain joined the EU?

How bad was life before we joined, I don't think it was bad at all, not the least that I can remember.

[Svensson]

Call me a cynic, Svensson, but it's strange how things that the Germans want actually end up happening.

"We must get closer to the formation of a European army."

http://en.theeuropean.eu/franz-josef-jung--3/8280-european-army-a-vision-for-the-future

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/fianna-fail-promises-to-every-citizen-e188-per-week/

Now this might take a while to achieve. It would probably arrive step by imperceptible step, each step defended as a small step and perfectly reasonable.

The Germans wanted to keep the D-Mark instead of adoption the Euro and they didn't get it. the EU, as with any relationship, is a give-and take. Some things you get, others you don't. What Farage and Co constantly fail to mention is that all the EU laws that were implemented in the UK were crafted in co-operation with all members including the UK and they have been ratified by all members, including the UK. In addition, the UK have opt-out powers. So the nothing that the EU does anything that the UK does not agree with is nonsense.

The world is changing. In the past, there were regional powers, (sometimes multiple ones on each continent) but with India, China and the US, the small regional powers of the past will just be gobbled up in their spheres of influence or even worse, used as pawns in whatever conflicts there will be in the second half of the 21st century and beyond. The Ukraine is a point in case for this scenario. I don't want to be living in such a pawn country by then, so Europe (in whatever form that may be) will need to be strong enough to protects its own interests and stability.

I don't think it's too far fetched that in 1000 year's time, there will be an earth army. No doubt, this will probably be under German leadership, if the Daily Express is to be believed.

The last part was a joke, btw.

[Svensson]

Is it Breitbart you are referring to?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart_News

Please check the "notable invented stories" section. A common trait for populist news organisations. As far as Schäuble's comments go, it's on the same level as the "Turkey about to join EU" easter egg. Talk is cheap, and until this is actually going through the legislative of the EU or has been proposed by the Comission, it's not even worth talking about.