EU Vote

[caz]

I don't think one can expect Nigel to carry on, now that after years of work he's achieved his main purpose, especially with the death threats.

Well he said he had "done his bit", which puzzled me and made me wonder which "bit", but I'm mighty glad he's done with the death threats. Ah, I see what you meant.

Love,

Caz
X

[Svensson]

Hi Svensson

You're dead right, Juncker is nothing like a British civil servant. British civil servants are supposed to be neutral. I realise there is a big difference between theory and practice, but Juncker is in a different league entirely.

The thing is that I accept that there shouldn't be an "absolute democracy" (otherwise, if the people are consulted on every single decision

I was reading this and expecting you to continue with something like 'then everything would be up in the air all the time, and nothing would ever get done.' But instead :

we would basically just have mob rule)

Oh, I so agree. We can't have the Great Unwashed getting above their betters.

If what you are arguing is that the EU cannot function democratically and effectively without becoming a superstate - a United States of Europe - then I agree. In fact, it was clear back in 1975 that this would be the case. It is inevitable. Leave campaigners warned the public then that this would be the case. They were denounced as fascists and communists by the remainers, who swore that the idea of a superstate had never entered their heads. The precondition of course is that if the EU is to be a democratic superstate, its citizens must actually want this. We know the majority of the British don't, and I suspect the same holds true for many of the remaining countries. I would hope that there would be simultaneous referendums in all the remaining countries to see if these countries want such a superstate.

OK, so it's apparent that I was grappling with this one for a while...

The superstate is a concept that is realistically dead since the "European Constitution" failed to get popular support in the first two referendums in Denmark and the Netherlands in 1992. Since then, much has been attempted without the structure of a superstate but there are limits of what can be done (i.e. Euro, common foreign policy with regards to Russia or Refugee crisis, etc). It is likely that the EU have reached the limits and that further integration is simply not possible. But I think this is just another reason to consolidate the single market and work on product safety, standardisation (within the current limits), continue to work on environmental issues and cross-border health projects rather than running away from it all.

[Svensson]

Sure it can be done with 27 bilateral agreements (times 27 for each of the 28 countries) but it would be soooooooooo much easier and convenient if there was one body controlling all of it centrally... besides, there is no guarantee that the agreement with Spain will end up being the same as the one for France. So will we then have one product for Spain and then a slightly different one for France? Very uneconomical...

And I don't accept that a body standardising food-labelling across 27 countries is an "infringement of sovereignty". It's called cooperation.

[jason_c]

I don't see this as a problem. After all, every member state gets a set of regulation that they KNOW are valid in all other countries as well. Simple example: I want to buy fire-proof furniture. Fire-proof according to my understanding and according to the laws of the country that I live in. So this means that when I look at a sofa from Italy, I don't want to have to just take their word for it. I want to know that this is according to a BSI standard. And since I can not expect the BSI to certify Sofas from Italy, an EU certification is the next best thing. Otherwise, I don't think that Italian Sofas should be sold in the UK as I can't be sure that they are fire-proof. for my own piece of mind and also for my insurance. If my house burns down, I don't want the insurance company to be able to turn around and refuse paying up because I had furniture that was not sufficiently fire-proof. So a true single-market can only work when all goods and services produced in that single-market adhere to certain minimum standards. So the benefit of this system is that all member countries can fully trust the Goods and services of all partners within the Single Market.

All this(or most of it) can be done outwith the EU political project. After all there are plenty of free trade agreements between states; agreements where most of this is ironed out. Our tyre standards have to meet those of the Germans; French widgets need to be standardised with ours. We know all this. Most of this can be worked out without infringing on state sovereignty.

[Limehouse]

Hear hear, Julie.

I find it ironic that the Brexit voters don't trust European politicians (who included the British ones) an inch, yet they have put their trust in an absolute shower who clearly had no clue how they would steer our country forward, and have no clue now.

Abandon ship, captain first, women and children last.

Love,

Caz
X

Lovely to agree on this Caz.

[Limehouse]

The silence is deafening.

So where have all the Brexit politicians gone, just when the country needs them? Hmmm...

Love,

Caz
X

Well,, without wishing to sound sexist, they've enjoyed the party but left the women to do the clearing up!

[Robert]

The tree will probably fall eastwards - that's the way the EU is moving at present.

[Svensson]

He's taken an axe to the EU tree - that's good enough for me.

... and then isn't concerned with making sure that the falling tree won't hit the house.

[Svensson]

btw, "Brexit the Movie - a Swiss Reply" deals with the fact that the movie never really explained the relationship that Switzerland has with the EU and why they believe that this relationship is beneficial to the swiss economy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNXmfqQqOU

[Robert]

He's taken an axe to the EU tree - that's good enough for me.

[Svensson]

I don't think one can expect Nigel to carry on, now that after years of work he's achieved his main purpose.

Yep, it's not like he is a George Washington or someone like that...

[Robert]

I don't think one can expect Nigel to carry on, now that after years of work he's achieved his main purpose, especially with the death threats.

As for the others, they are not and never were true Brexiters - if they were, they would not be members of a Vichy party.

[Robert]

Svensson, I think the Americans 'accepted' one nation because they are - er - a nation. Being a nation isn't something one 'accepts' or signs up for.

[caz]

The silence is deafening.

So where have all the Brexit politicians gone, just when the country needs them? Hmmm...

Love,

Caz
X

[Svensson]

PCDunn,

The European Union is far, far more like the USSR than it ever will be like the USA.

I'll tell you what it is, a more discerning public such as the USA would have left a long, long time before we did.

Americans would never have accepted an institution such as the EU.

Why not? American citizens have accepted much more than the EU. They accepted (and what the EU does not offer):
- one government
- one army
- one language
- one taxation system (apart from sales tax which is deregulated)
- one health-care system (or multiples, but all are available everywhere)
- one nation