EU Vote

[Elamarna]

Steve,

please read what I wrote. I said the vast majority of the people that I know said that they'd vote to leave. As a 70 year-old, I am led to believe that most of us in the 'pensioner class' voted to leave and, after speaking casually with my equally aged friends, that seems to be the case.

Graham

Graham

I did and included that in my reply
however i was mainly responding to the point that the prevailing public opinion had been misread, the figures were used to suggest that view was not 100% correct.
When a vote is so close i do not believe that it was misread.

Guess it depended on where you were and what you believe in, my mother in london who is 83and her 3 friends all voted to remain.

no disrespect meant, just don't think the comment about public opinion was correct

steve

[Graham]

Graham

interesting post and I disagree with almost all of it, but of course most is about opinion,so there is no right or wrong.
However the comment about misreading public opinion and the vast majority of people you know wanted to leave is not what the result told us.

The vast majority did not vote to leave , a 4% majority did, that is not a vast majority, it is a very small one. and shows a country split in half.

steve

Steve,

please read what I wrote. I said the vast majority of the people that I know said that they'd vote to leave. As a 70 year-old, I am led to believe that most of us in the 'pensioner class' voted to leave and, after speaking casually with my equally aged friends, that seems to be the case.

Graham

[Robert]

I don't like Corbyn or his politics, BUT :

The new Labour Party voting arrangements were introduced by the Labour Party itself, and in particular by the old guard - the pre-Corbyn-leadership Labour Party.

It seems to me that those who are opposed to Corbyn have a number of options, any of which would be honourable. They could :

1. Resign and join another party.
2. Resign and found another party.
3. Resign and then stand again for Labour, on a specifically anti-Corbyn ticket.
4. Campaign for Labour voters who think like them to join the party and outvote Corbyn's supporters in a leadership contest.
5. Resign and step down from frontline politics altogether.

Or they can do what they're doing now - bitching around, hobbling the party so that it can't properly oppose the tories, and making the party look even more of a laughing stock than the tories. That doesn't seem to me to be honourable at all.

[Elamarna]

I may be in a minority here, but I believe that Cameron did a pretty good job in his first term as PM, even as part of a coalition government. I also believe that he didn't think he could win the last election, and thus gave a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership, if he won. He did win, and I think it took him by surprise, especially as he won with a majority. He kept his word, we had a referendum, and according to 48% of the people who voted it has all gone tits up. Well, if Mr Beardie Jeremiah Corbin had inherited the roaring rhetoric of one or two of his more redoubtable predecessors (such as Bevin, Smith, Kinnock and, dare I say it, Foot), he might have persuaded more of his supporters (that is, if there are any left) to have voted remain. The sooner he's replaced as leader of the Labour Party the better, as he certainly did no favours for those who still support Labour.
I'm afraid that, once again, it's a question of senior politicians hopelessly mis-reading prevailing public opinion - the vast majority of people I know said they'd vote to Leave.

Still, there is I suppose a dim ray of hope that we might avoid Brexit - anyone who thinks we could at some future point re-negotiate our way back into the EU is dreaming. On the positive side, I seriously doubt if the UK will be the last member state to vote to leave the EU....we are being very, very closely watched.

Graham

Graham

interesting post and I disagree with almost all of it, but of course most is about opinion,so there is no right or wrong.
However the comment about misreading public opinion and the vast majority of people you know wanted to leave is not what the result told us.

The vast majority did not vote to leave , a 4% majority did, that is not a vast majority, it is a very small one. and shows a country split in half.

steve

[Graham]

I agree with most of what you have written Graham (except the bit about Cameron doing a good job and your analysis of Corbyn) and it is not so much that Brexit is as harmful as some believe - but that the politicians who believed in it didn't have a plan for moving forward if/when the people voted in favour of it.

What bothers me more than anything is that Brexit was being used by politicians to achieve an end to their own means whereas the public took it deadly seriously - leaving the politicians unprepared and with no clear plan. They looked, and still look, incompetent.

Julie, as a pensioner I am appreciative of having an annual rise of 2.5% in state pension, way above the current inflation rate. I am also appreciative that Osborne has abolished tax on savings interest. Maybe I'm being slightly self-centered here, but that's life. Cameron is also a supporter of Aston Villa (or was, as I was until they got relegated last season).

I take issue with your statement that the public took the referendum deadly seriously - there was a bimbo on the box the day after the referendum who said, when asked why she voted Brexit, that 'she didn't really know, but I just did'. Sadly, she was not the only one. One week after the referendum, I have yet to find anyone who voted Brexit to actually admit that he or she considered the possible consequences. Frightening, really, but sorry to say a sad reflection of the times we live in.

Corbyn, let's be honest, ain't up to it, Julie. He may be a nice bloke with a horrible beard, but he is not 'leader of a major political party' material. Neither was Milliband. As a non-Labour voter, I actually had a good deal of respect and admiration for Neil Kinnock, and remain surprised that he didn't do better at the 1992 General Election (I can forgive him his triumphalism at Sheffield...) - until then, he was amazingly the longest-serving Leader Of The Opposition in British political history. He'd have had Jeremiah for breakfast with an egg and a fried tomato. Anyway, come this time next week, New Old Labour will have another leader who the members of the party can pour scorn on.

Graham

[Limehouse]

I may be in a minority here, but I believe that Cameron did a pretty good job in his first term as PM, even as part of a coalition government. I also believe that he didn't think he could win the last election, and thus gave a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership, if he won. He did win, and I think it took him by surprise, especially as he won with a majority. He kept his word, we had a referendum, and according to 48% of the people who voted it has all gone tits up. Well, if Mr Beardie Jeremiah Corbin had inherited the roaring rhetoric of one or two of his more redoubtable predecessors (such as Bevin, Smith, Kinnock and, dare I say it, Foot), he might have persuaded more of his supporters (that is, if there are any left) to have voted remain. The sooner he's replaced as leader of the Labour Party the better, as he certainly did no favours for those who still support Labour.
I'm afraid that, once again, it's a question of senior politicians hopelessly mis-reading prevailing public opinion - the vast majority of people I know said they'd vote to Leave.

Still, there is I suppose a dim ray of hope that we might avoid Brexit - anyone who thinks we could at some future point re-negotiate our way back into the EU is dreaming. On the positive side, I seriously doubt if the UK will be the last member state to vote to leave the EU....we are being very, very closely watched.

Graham

I agree with most of what you have written Graham (except the bit about Cameron doing a good job and your analysis of Corbyn) and it is not so much that Brexit is as harmful as some believe - but that the politicians who believed in it didn't have a plan for moving forward if/when the people voted in favour of it.

What bothers me more than anything is that Brexit was being used by politicians to achieve an end to their own means whereas the public took it deadly seriously - leaving the politicians unprepared and with no clear plan. They looked, and still look, incompetent.

[Graham]

I may be in a minority here, but I believe that Cameron did a pretty good job in his first term as PM, even as part of a coalition government. I also believe that he didn't think he could win the last election, and thus gave a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership, if he won. He did win, and I think it took him by surprise, especially as he won with a majority. He kept his word, we had a referendum, and according to 48% of the people who voted it has all gone tits up. Well, if Mr Beardie Jeremiah Corbin had inherited the roaring rhetoric of one or two of his more redoubtable predecessors (such as Bevin, Smith, Kinnock and, dare I say it, Foot), he might have persuaded more of his supporters (that is, if there are any left) to have voted remain. The sooner he's replaced as leader of the Labour Party the better, as he certainly did no favours for those who still support Labour.
I'm afraid that, once again, it's a question of senior politicians hopelessly mis-reading prevailing public opinion - the vast majority of people I know said they'd vote to Leave.

Still, there is I suppose a dim ray of hope that we might avoid Brexit - anyone who thinks we could at some future point re-negotiate our way back into the EU is dreaming. On the positive side, I seriously doubt if the UK will be the last member state to vote to leave the EU....we are being very, very closely watched.

Graham

[Robert]

Actually, Jon, if Britain breaks up over Europe it will be because the Scots will have decided that their loyalties and interests diverge from the rest of the UK. Without the Scottish Remain majority, Brexit would have won by even more. In that situation, if the Scots want to go it alone, good luck to them. We have chosen to leave the EU, and cannot permit the tail to wag the dog.

[Wickerman]

This hopeless mess has been caused by Cameron promising a referendum he believed would not result in our exit from the EU and the egos of other 'make-it-up-as-they-go-along' politicians.

Yes I wondered if anyone remembered how this predicament arose. No doubt if things turn sour and Britain breaks up as a result then history will apply blame to the 'exit' camp and their revolutionary leaders, rather than the egotistical stand of one particular politician.

[Limehouse]

Julie, how can you have a general election when one party doesn't have a leader and the other hasn't got enough MPs prepared to serve as shadows?

Very good question - but that does not mean that it should not happen.

This hopeless mess has been caused by Cameron promising a referendum he believed would not result in our exit from the EU and the egos of other 'make-it-up-as-they-go-along' politicians. As I wrote previously, Boris didn't even have an exit plan! Having created this mess together, they have abandoned ship - probably so that they cannot be blamed for any future disasters resulting from our exit.

The only solution is a General Election, or a Coalition Government so that out exit is as carefully negotiated as it can be.

[Syrius]

I reckon Boris decided not to go for the position of Leader of the Conservative Party not because of any issue with the party, but because, by virtue of the current set-up of Westminster, he would also need to be PM.

It's clear that the next PM will need to be the one at the table negotiating the terms of our exit from the EU.

This will be difficult. The next PM will have to choose between a very conciliatory exit that leaves the door open enough for a return to the EU on favourable terms ("Boris doesn't Believe in Britain!" screams tabloids, losing the PM support that they will need should an election be earlier than 2020, or even if an election is as late as 2020), or an exit which effectively sticks two fingers up at the EU (which will mean the EU could respond with harsher terms on trade.) In short, it's an unwinnable situation.

Boris wants to be successful as a PM; whoever succeeds Cameron won't be able to be successful as a PM if they've got to negotiate the terms of Brexit.

I think it will be Gove, which is a concern (I'm a teacher, so I can speak first hand of his "genuis").

Syrius

[Robert]

Julie, how can you have a general election when one party doesn't have a leader and the other hasn't got enough MPs prepared to serve as shadows?

[Limehouse]

I saw on the news last night that Boris Johnson has decided not to try for the Prime Minister position, as he doesn't believe he's the right person to lead Britain now.
Who is, then?

I don't believe for one minute that he 'doesn't believe he's the right person'. It has been his ambition for a good number of years. More than likely, he has realised that the Tory Party would not select him when pitched against the other candidates so he's stepped out of the race.

If I was asked to personally choose a candidate from those most likely to run, that is: Gove, Fox, Crabb and May, I would choose Theresa May but personally, I think there should be a General Election.

[Pcdunn]

I saw on the news last night that Boris Johnson has decided not to try for the Prime Minister position, as he doesn't believe he's the right person to lead Britain now.
Who is, then?

[Limehouse]

No current politician, left or right, seems to be able to state truthfully what is best for the country. They are, almost without exception, a shameful shower who have visited immeasurable suffering to hard-working people whilst filling their own coffers.

This was my opinion in the run-up to the referendum, and given the behaviours, attitudes and antics on both sides of the house AND in the European Parliament in recent days, this opinion is strengthening by the hour.

How on earth do we move forward?