EU Vote

[Robert]

Thanks Jeff. As usual, detailed but never idle.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Who, or what, is 'the left'?

I don't define myself in relation to anyone. Stop telling me who I am and why I exist.

No current politician, left or right, seems to be able to state truthfully what is best for the country. They are, almost without exception, a shameful shower who have visited immeasurable suffering to hard-working people whilst filling their own coffers.

Yes you did. You somehow turned a discussion surrounding whether or not Britain should remain a part of the EU, into a choice between two Tories. And, that pretty much tells anyone what they need to know about your political bias. Only 'the left' in their ridiculous, unfathomable, impenetrable minds could possibly do this.

And, you know exactly what 'the left' is. You claim it as your political position when the cap fits.

And, furthermore, for you to claim at this juncture that 'left' and 'right' are equally liberal with the truth is bordering on the ridiculous given your posting history which pretty much amounts to: "two legs good; four legs bad".

Who ya trying to kid? You don't believe they're all 'a shameful shower'. You're a fully paid up member of 'the left' who repeats the party line verbatim, except in this case for some strange reason.

I grant you that the Tories are not my cup of tea, never voted for them and never will do, but I absolutely can't stand the 'left' because they'll say anything depending upon the occasion; just as you have you done here. At least Boris Johnson, whom you mentioned, has principles that he stands by, toff though he is.

[Mayerling]

An idle question : to the best of people's knowledge, and allowing for inflation, has any American President been as rich as Trump (before taking office, I mean)?

Hi Robert,

An idle, if detailed answer:

1) George Washington (possibly the richest man in Virginia in 1789 - 1799, when he died, and among the richest men in the 13 states).

2) Thomas Jefferson (also very wealthy when elected - but he was a compulsive spendthrift, and his love of literature and culture was enhanced by his being our Minister to France in the 1780s; he would eventually go bankrupt several times, have to sell his library to the nation to recreate the Library of Congress after the burning of Washington, and finally had to be rescued by a national lottery - it did not help matters he continued to spend like there was no tomorrow)

3) James Madison (also very wealthy - and, unlike Jefferson, not a spendthrift; unfortunately when he married Dolley Todd he inherited her son, Payne Todd who was a total wastrel; he had him through his Presidency, and even got him a government job as the "secretary" to our peace mission to Ghent that ended the War of 1812 - Payne didn't do much, but enjoyed the gambling hells and bordellos in Europe; after the Presidency he still had Todd, who did not help him much as the agricultural economy of Virginia hit a slump in the 1820s and 1830s; Madison died in 1836, and Dolley (who loved her son) made the mistake of putting him in charge of the remaining Madison estate. He ran it into the ground within four years. Fortunately Dolley remained a leading figure in Washington, D.C. society until her death in 1848.)

4) James Monroe (like Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, a member of the upper crust planters of Virginia. He like Jefferson and Madison had huge expenses as government employees, and watched the agricultural decline of the early 19th Century; after his Presidency he left Virginia and moved to New YorK City living in Manhattan with his daughter and son-in-law; he also brought suit against the Federal government regarding money he spent on foreign diplomatic tours in France (he was involved in the diplomatic work leading to the Louisiana Purchase, and in the 1790s he plotted with Wolfe Tone and General Lazare Hoche for the French invasion of Ireland tied to Tone's revolt of 1798)).

5) Andrew Jackson (Not quite as rich as the Virginia dynasty, but he was a successful attorney, and land - plantation owner ("the Hermitage" in Nashville, Tennessee), before he turned to a military and political career. Eventually he returned to being a plantation owner. Once he did get into bad financial problems - in the banking collapse of 1796, he found the banks he dealt with calling in loans used for buying land - he survived, but he always mistrusted banks after that - which made his attack on the Second Bank of the United States understandable.).

6) William Henry Harrison (From an old Virginian plantation family - his father signed the Declaration of Independence. He settled in Ohio, and (after a brief flirtation with learning about medicine) he opted for a military and diplomatic (Grand Columbia under Simon Bolivar, whom he disliked), and political career. When not holding office he worked his plantation.)

7) John Tyler (Plantation owner in Virginia, when not holding public office (Governorship, U.S. Senator, Vice Presidency, Presidency), but after his Presidency he was the first President to head a Univiersity (William and Mary College; the others are James Garfield (Hiram College), Woodrow Wilson (Princeton University), Dwight Eisenhower (Columbia University)).

8) Zackary Taylor (Plantation owner in Louisiana - he was from Virginia, but spent most of his career as a soldier, fighting Osceola in the Florida Everglades, and then building up his reputation in the Mexican War, leading to his one political office as President.).

9) Theodore Roosevelt (family were in New York City society, but not the highest level - old Dutch family. His father was in the glass industry, and in the wake of the Chicago Fire of 1871 made a mint selling glass (for windows) in the rebuilding of that city; TR would never have real difficulties about money, but he married (twice) and had all six kids to care for. In 1888 his friend Henry Cabot Lodge got the editor of the American Statesman Series of biographies to give TR assignments for the biographies of Gouveneur Morris and Thomas Hart Benton. Roosevelt (in Lodge's words) "needed the money". TR would augment his living by writing ("The Naval War of 1812"; "The Winning of the West"; "Oliver Cromwell", his various books on his hunting trips) for the rest of his life. Fortunately, he was an excellent writer.)

10) Herbert Clark Hoover (an expert mining engineer (diploma from Stamford University), Hoover was involved in mining around the globe (he was in China in 1900, and involved in the defense against the Boxers); he was worth about $5 or $6 million dollars (in 1929 dollars) when elected. Ironically he always mistrusted stock investments on the Stock Exchange.))

11) Franklin Delano Roosevelt (the Roosevelt family's upstate group - Franklin's father was a member of the Board of Directors of the Grand Central Railroad, and his mother Sarah Delano was from a wealthy family of traders in the China trade (historically, this was a bad thing, because Sarah's stories of life in China in the 1860s and 1870s colored Franklin's imagination, making him think himself an expert in Chinese affairs in the 1930s and 1940s when he barely understood them). In his years recovering (if at all) from his polio, he got involved in "investments" involving zeppelin lines across the U.S. - which never were built, and digging for the "Oak Island" treasure. At the time of the 1933 inauguration he was worth about the same as Hoover. He also was an avid stamp collector up to his death, but I don't know how much the collection was ever worth.)

12) John Fitzgerald Kennedy (after the death of his brother Joe Jr. in World War II, he is the oldest son of Joseph Kennedy Sr., Wall Street wizard (who got out of the market in September 1929); Joe set up multi-million dollar trust funds for all his sons and daughters. At the time of his Presidency J.F.K. is worth about $10 million dollars. Joe Sr., (reputedly) also set up a sum to encourage Jackie Bouvier to not divorce his son over his affairs (before and during Marilyn); Jackie, of course, would later marry Onassis for her children's security.).

13) Lyndon Baines Johnson (While born in straightened circumstances, Johnson was lucky enough to marry Lady Bird Johnson, who was wealthy, and owned a radio station among other properties. Johnson was able to concentrate on politics for most of his career as a result. Professionally he was a lawyer.).

14) George Herbert Walker Bush (His father Preston Bush was a Senator, but also a big wig in the oil industry; George Sr. was (like LBJ, and JFK) able to consider and pursue a career in public service as a result.)

15) George W. Bush (From inheritances, he too had a cushion of cash to float on. He even owned a baseball team ("Texas Rangers" I believe) for awhile. However he was not the best businessman. Many wonder if he was even a fair President.).

Those are the richest Presidents. Many of the others were "comfortable" as lawyers. Two (besides Jefferson) did go bankrupt, (Grant, who wrote his memoirs to leave an estate to his family - his money was lost in a stockbrokerage collapse caused by a crooked partner named Ferdinand Ward; Truman, whose clothing shop went belly up in 1922, would be a public servant unti 1953, and then a successful writer).

Jeff

[Limehouse]

....and there ladies and gentlemen is possibly the best thing ever posted on the internet...

All in it for themselves or their mates no matter what Party they belong to. Bunch of selfish greedy liars... 'who will be blamed for nothing...'

Many thanks Geddy. It came from the heart, believe me.

[Robert]

An idle question : to the best of people's knowledge, and allowing for inflation, has any American President been as rich as Trump (before taking office, I mean)?

[Ginger]

That would be nice. I suspect Trump will only elevate his own interests, frankly. But if his rhetoric resounds with you, go for it. Still a free country...

As long as he destroys the current system, it will be a net gain, even if he can't build anything atop the rubble. I do honestly think that the man is far too vain to not want to be remembered as the best possible POTUS, though. He owes nothing to either party, has no favours to pay back, has no underlings for whom to pave the way. He's all about personal popularity. I think he's exactly what America needs.

[Pcdunn]

Hear, hear! I am fed up to death with the Left and the Right both. I want someone who elevates national interests above anything else.

That would be nice. I suspect Trump will only elevate his own interests, frankly. But if his rhetoric resounds with you, go for it. Still a free country...

[Robert]

Cameron and Blair - two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

[Ginger]

No current politician, left or right, seems to be able to state truthfully what is best for the country. They are, almost without exception, a shameful shower who have visited immeasurable suffering to hard-working people whilst filling their own coffers.

Hear, hear! I am fed up to death with the Left and the Right both. I want someone who elevates national interests above anything else.

[Robert]

They are indeed the hollow men - except that their headpieces aren't even filled with straw.

[Geddy2112]

No current politician, left or right, seems to be able to state truthfully what is best for the country. They are, almost without exception, a shameful shower who have visited immeasurable suffering to hard-working people whilst filling their own coffers.

....and there ladies and gentlemen is possibly the best thing ever posted on the internet...

All in it for themselves or their mates no matter what Party they belong to. Bunch of selfish greedy liars... 'who will be blamed for nothing...'

[Limehouse]

So, your whole political choice is defined by two Tories?

Christ.

What about the principle of the matter?

This is the thing with the left: you define yourselves in relation to the Tories to the extent you have lost all sense of perspective. You exist only to be anti-Tory. Thinking about it though, not surprising considering the left has nothing interesting to say.

So what if Cameron or whomever else supports staying in or leaving? Surely the point is what is best for this country?

Who, or what, is 'the left'?

I don't define myself in relation to anyone. Stop telling me who I am and why I exist.

No current politician, left or right, seems to be able to state truthfully what is best for the country. They are, almost without exception, a shameful shower who have visited immeasurable suffering to hard-working people whilst filling their own coffers.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Well, no, I certainly wouldn't. However, we joined the EEC, a very different community from the current EU.

The problem for me is, do we stay in with Cameron or pull out with Boris et al? That, for me, is no choice at all.

So, your whole political choice is defined by two Tories?

Christ.

What about the principle of the matter?

This is the thing with the left: you define yourselves in relation to the Tories to the extent you have lost all sense of perspective. You exist only to be anti-Tory. Thinking about it though, not surprising considering the left has nothing interesting to say.

So what if Cameron or whomever else supports staying in or leaving? Surely the point is what is best for this country?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Most Americans (myself included) will cut foreigners considerable slack on calling us "yankees", but yeah, that's a derogatory term used to refer to New Englanders.

I thought it was originally bestowed upon the English.....by the Dutch?

[Robert]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE3mHhpGV2A