JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

''ACTUAL EVIDENCE''




For me, the problem with the Tippit shooting has always been the ID of the shells as being from an automatic pistol, by DPD Sgt. Gerald Hill.



I have only known two cops in my life, but both knew a lot about guns and ammo (stock in trade after all) and both regarded a crime against a fellow officer as most serious.

Beyond dispute, after viewing the shells found near the Tippit murder, Sgt. Hill got on the police radio and said, "the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38."

In a 1986 interview, Hill said he knew the shells were .38-caliber shells because he picked one of them up and examined it.

Automatic .38 shells, on the bottom, are imprinted very clearly with the word "auto."

It defies imagination that a police sergeant would look at an evidence shell at the scene of a brutal murder of a fellow officer, and then get on the police radio describe the shell type exactly wrong. A murder is serious business, and a murder of fellow officer the most serious of all.

There are not a myriad of shell types. There is revolver and auto. It is not a bewildering topic taking years to master.

The Sgt. Hill situation strongly suggests evidence was switched around after the fact.

[FISHY1118]

And people wonder why I express concern for the thread. This is the standard of ‘analysis’ that we get. He’s even stealing phrases from me

Nobody cares about your concerns .

[FISHY1118]

I don’t know how you manage to do all of the analysis above Fishy. Well done. Great skill and knowledge.

Thanks herlock , just providing the ''actual evidence'' as requested .

[A P Tomlinson]

Honestly, I’m sorry but it’s all been addressed. I am so sick of listening to it all AP. Secret meetings, so and so apparently talked about the Bay of Pigs whilst Lyndon Johnson did rifle practice using a photo of Jack Ruby. Blah, blah Military Industrial Complex blah blah Oswald was James Bond blah blah they were all in on it blah blah.

Man on floor of building.
His rifle.
His prints.
Cartridges matched scientifically.
Man escapes when there was no need if innocent.
Man kills police officer.
Man’s behaviour on the day totally indicative of guilt.

Guilty…no need for any further discussion. They could have had a trial on the 24th and found him guilty.

Oswald was a double murderer. Not a shadow of a doubt.

Conspiracy theorist have done the greatest act of muddying the waters in the history of the world.

You are 1) doing the usual trick of ascribing general ideas of stupidity to an argument that I don't hold, and 2) over simplifying matters.

Show me any evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the building at the time of the shooting. And if the words "Howard" and "Brennan" are about to flit through your mind let me put THAT to bed straight away.
Brennan was talking absolute rubbish that any lawyer with a brain would have been able to tear through by having the court take a quick trip to Dealey Plaza, stand beneath the building at the point where where Brennan was and put someone standing at the window in the way Brennan described, have it open the 12" it was on the day and ask Brennan to describe that persons height, age, weight and hair colour. It was impossible to see a man from his waist to the top of his head standing at the window unless they were about 2' tall. Brennan couldn't identify Oswald in the line up until later in the day, after the news had coincidentally started showing his picture on the TV. The best Brennan came up with was that Oswald looked the "most like" the man he claimed he saw. And that had nothing to do with the fact that oswald was the only one in the line up who had just been beaten by cops, and looked like it.
No one was able to identify the shooter they saw in that window.

I notice that earlier you mentioned Oswald and the sweater... and how that time delay was most fortunate for Ruby. So we'll use your own rationalising the other way round and see if that stands.
The exact same argument applies to Oswald, but I doubt you'll see it that way.
Oswald was seen on the ground floor at a few minutes before 12:15 eating his lunch. Had Kennedy not stopped at Love Field for an extra 15 minutes to gladhand with the crowd. He would have been pulling round the corner of Main onto Houston at the time the assassin was seen eating his lunch. Lucky for him that Kennedy was running as late as he was in order to get up there, set up the nest and reassemble his rifle.
Of course, of there's nothing to cut and paste from the Warren Report on this as rather than try and clear this up, that witness - Carolyn Arnold, whose FBI statement gave Oswald an alibi, was never brought to the Warren Commission or re-interviewed by anyone connected to investigating the assassination.
Of course, Eddie Piper and Bill Shelley who both saw Oswald down stairs at around noon were both called, as their testimony wasn't at all threatening to the narrative.
Nothing unusual there, as Victoria Adams, who testified that she set off immediately to head down the stairs ended up in the report as having waited a minute before heading down the stairs where she was said to have met with Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley who were behind the TSBD for a few minutes (she never said that, only that she saw them later...), and despite her asking to be part of the recreation so she could show them, and protestations that Sandra Styles (who was with her on the stairs) Elsie Dormand and Dorothy Garner (all of whom have since corroborated Vicky's statement on numerous occasions including signed affidavits) would tell the Commission she was right, they dismissed her account... and refused to investigate further by following up on her claims.

Obviously this posed a problem for the narrative, as Oswald SHOULD have been on that staircase. It was the only way he could have got down to the 2nd floor lunchroom in time to meet Truly and Baker. He was on the second floor within 90 seconds of the shots being fired.
The recreation walkthrough showed that such a timing was possible, but never considered introducing any known factors that might dispute it.

Garner even stayed by the stairwell door as Vicky and Sandra went down the stairs and saw no one else till Baker and Truly came up them a few moments later. But that wasn't in the Warren Report so we can all safely assume it just didn't happen and they were all conspiracy nuts or just "silly women", which was how Bellin and co painted the situation.

[Patrick Differ]

The US Government has put together a Task Force in the House to investigate JFK, RFK and MLK Assassinations. I would advise waiting to see what comes of it.

[Fiver]

Of course you are , because it's was a Mauser they took from the TSBD . What you call fake and forgery are indeed TRUTH and Facts.

What did Oswald take to work on the morning of Nov 22, 1963?

A second fact is that the rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD on Nov 22, 1963 had been Oswald's, and Oswald was the next-to-last party in possession of that rifle prior to the assassination. (Oswald will not have een the last party in possession of the rifle before the assassination if his intention on Nov 11 to prepare the rifle for a conveyance was accomplished.)

Care to explain how your "TRUTH and Facts" say that is was Oswald's rifle and that it wasn't Oswald's rifle?

[cobalt]

The US Government has put together a Task Force in the House to investigate JFK, RFK and MLK Assassinations. I would advise waiting to see what comes of it.

Precious little I would imagine. Employing militaristic terms like 'Task Force' is usually an indication of style over substance.

APT,

The timings which place Oswald on the ground floor at around 12.15 and the second floor at around 12.32 are an obvious undermining of the WC account. The response to this relies the self-referential assumption that LHO was guilty and a lone gunman therefore:

1. Fit FBI agents showed it was physically possible to reach the 6th floor, shoot the president and return in the times given.
2. The women were simply mistaken about the times.
3. No conspiracy would have relied upon a man whose movements could not be closely controlled or monitored thus Oswald must have acted alone.

The last point often appears on this forum, an interesting example of reverse logic. It assumes that the conspirators were committed to the single gunman theory whereas that construct emerged from the Warren Commission months later.

Some political reality from George Orwell.

He who controls the present controls the past.

Once power was transferred to Johnson in Dallas, the events of 22nd November were under the control of his administration. They opted for the rather unlikely combination of a lone gunman (and a highly politically engaged one) acting without any discernible political motive.

He who controls the past controls the future.

The conspiracy was only a partial success. Johnson did not use Oswald's political leanings as a pretext to invade Cuba which was surely a significant motive for the assassination. The escalation of US commitment to the Vietnam conflict was achieved, but as it turned out the social cost was very high as a generation of younger Americans became disillusioned about their own country. However that social unrest struggled to achieve a political momentum capable of exposing the conspirators and was effectively buried with the assassination of RFK.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’d like to assess a part of the case and it will be the result of my own thinking and not just an exercise in cutting and pasting someone else’s work.

The area I want to talk about is The Sniper’s Nest and the location of the rifle and the cartridges and i’m not talking about a discussion on technical issues concerning the rifle and ammunition but just the fact of them being where they were, and I want to do it in relation to three suggestions as to what happened at the time of the assassination. The three are:


a - That some unknown person created the Sniper’s Nest and planted the rifle and cartridges to incriminate LHO.

b - That some unknown person created the Sniper’s Nest in order to fire at Kennedy without LHO being aware of it.

c - That LHO created the Sniper’s Nest and fired at Kennedy from that location.


So let’s begin with option a.


So when did our mystery man create the Sniper’s Nest and plant the rifle and cartridges? Aside from all debate on where Oswald was at what time we can reasonably assume that he wasn’t there when someone was setting him up as the Presidents assassin. So where did our mystery man come from? He is to be congratulated for gaining access to a very busy working building, with staff on all floors, without a single person seeing and noting the presence of a complete stranger (especially as he was carrying a large package containing a rifle) While we are at it we have to add more praise for him exiting the building without being seen.

Then we have to ask ourselves how this man could have known or predicted Oswald’s actions? (as Oswald was naturally totally oblivious to the fact that he was been set up as an assassin) Was he just waiting in the shadows for the off chance that the 6th floor would become empty? What if it hadn’t? What if a couple of workers had stayed on the 6th floor? How could he have got from his hiding place to the Nest unseen? How could he have created the Nest in the first place. What if someone had left, bought a drink at one of the machines and returned to the 6th floor two minutes later?

Another question is for those that take the Roger Craig seriously. Can we really believe that our conspirator decided to plant cartridges lined up and within an inch or less of each other? How could that convince any investigator? The answer of course is that it wouldn’t. But this isn’t something that we have to consider because we know from the evidence that Craig just can’t be taken seriously.

Another very obvious question to ask is what if there had been someone on the 6th floor at the time of the shots and they, quite naturally, would have known that no shots could have been fired from that floor because they guy had just set up the Sniper’s Nest and left. Where would that have left our conspirators?

It’s obvious that the suggestion that some stranger arranged the Sniper’s Nest and planted the rifle of cartridges simply doesn’t hold water.


Now, let’s consider option b.


Again of course we have to deal again with the problem of a complete stranger, carrying a rifle in some king of package, entering and leaving a busy working building with not a single person reporting seeing a him. Then more problems present themselves some of which are the same ones that are applicable to option a.

So we assume he’d managed to sneak in unseen, and we assume that he’d successfully hidden himself, and we assume that he was fortunate enough to get the 6th floor to himself, and we assume that he was lucky enough to escape the building unnoticed, we then have to talk about the Sniper’s Nest and why this man would have needed one.

He would certainly have needed a huge chunk of luck that the workers all left the 6th floor allowing our unknown shooter to set up the Nest, assemble the rifle, kill Kennedy and escape unseen.

As the whole point of this plot was to set up LHO as the killer it’s reasonable for us to accept that our unknown shooter did indeed want to escape the building unseen and unidentified. The building of a Sniper’s Nest would have allowed someone to continue firing had someone else been on the 6th floor but it wouldn’t have allowed the shooter to escape unseen which would have been a disaster for our unknown shooter. Imagine the scene, he’s heard firing, he’s seen escaping, he’s pointed out to the police and arrested. Then the police find a rifle traced to an employee of the TSBD. They find that employees prints on the gun. And, as we can assume that our unknown gunman wouldn’t have wanted to be traced so he would have taken steps (by wearing gloves) the police would have had a gunman and a gun without the gunman’s prints on.


None of this is invention. I’m simply questioning what has been assumed to have been the case by conspiracy theorists.


So what about option c.


LHO had every right to be on the 6th floor so all of the issues and risks affecting a stranger don’t apply to him. He had no need to hide away; he could have piled boxes when being watched and no one would have given him a second glance. Like our shooter in option b the nest would have allowed Oswald to shoot without anyone trying to stop him. But what about escaping? We know that our option b man needed to escape without being captured and identified but here is the big difference. A guilty Oswald had no need to escape unseen or unnoticed

So do we have any actual evidence that LHO was either unconcerned about being identified and captured or that he even expected to be identified and captured? Yes we do of course. He’d left $170 and his wedding ring behind.



Only LHO makes sense as the 6th floor gunman.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Plenty of talk about the method of ordering the rifle and the rifle that was actually delivered but let’s ask a simpler question.

Why would a group of conspirators, whose aim was to set LHO Oswald up as the killer, have ordered a rifle in the name of Hidell?it makes zero sense. You want to set up a man as a killer you order the rifle in his own name.

Just ask common sense questions and the case solves itself.

[Patrick Differ]

There is also the possibility that Oswald was in fact on the government's payroll. That would be one explanation for withholding thousands of documents. The other is protecting National Security secrets or assets. It's not clear a family is being protected. But there is a reason for withholding.

I'm not sure what the term " Task Force" has to do with a Military term in this case but truth and transparency is a goal. Americans have little faith in government institutions so restoring some level of trust is a goal here within the House of Representatives. If Oswald did it he did it. If he wasnt alone or completely innocent than there is that too. It night mean more to Americans who lived through the ordeal of three murders of 3 major leaders. All within our own Country.

It would not surprise me to see an ex Marine purchase guns through the mail . Why he would use an alias would seem to mean he didn't want to be traced. Why could mean anything.

[A P Tomlinson]

Precious little I would imagine. Employing militaristic terms like 'Task Force' is usually an indication of style over substance.

APT,

The timings which place Oswald on the ground floor at around 12.15 and the second floor at around 12.32 are an obvious undermining of the WC account. The response to this relies the self-referential assumption that LHO was guilty and a lone gunman therefore:

1. Fit FBI agents showed it was physically possible to reach the 6th floor, shoot the president and return in the times given.
2. The women were simply mistaken about the times.
3. No conspiracy would have relied upon a man whose movements could not be closely controlled or monitored thus Oswald must have acted alone.

The last point often appears on this forum, an interesting example of reverse logic. It assumes that the conspirators were committed to the single gunman theory whereas that construct emerged from the Warren Commission months later.

Some political reality from George Orwell.

Once power was transferred to Johnson in Dallas, the events of 22nd November were under the control of his administration. They opted for the rather unlikely combination of a lone gunman (and a highly politically engaged one) acting without any discernible political motive.


The conspiracy was only a partial success. Johnson did not use Oswald's political leanings as a pretext to invade Cuba which was surely a significant motive for the assassination. The escalation of US commitment to the Vietnam conflict was achieved, but as it turned out the social cost was very high as a generation of younger Americans became disillusioned about their own country. However that social unrest struggled to achieve a political momentum capable of exposing the conspirators and was effectively buried with the assassination of RFK.

Ball and Belin were notoriously two handed in dealing with witnesses. They were the ones, along with Rankin, who pushed Warren to allow "Off the record" pre testimony interviews, which many of the junior counsels were very much against, (for the obvious reasons that it would look pretty poor that not only were they refusing Oswald any sort of defence counsel, but that they were also coaching and testing witness pre-hearing) where they essentially ran practice runs on witnesses and learned which questions NOT to ask, in order to lead to the "Clean Witness Statements" Warren wanted.

They twisted Bonnie Ray Williams in knots till he finally said something they liked and that became his testimony. They turned Charles Givens into a super witness by somehow, (after several statements and affidavits made to FBI and DPD saying he had last seen Oswald pre 12.00pm when Givens went down for his lunch,) following a closed door session with Belin, he was suddenly on the sixth floor at 12:15 to 12:20 observing Oswald over by the snipers nest. A view that had they checked in advance would have proved pretty difficult to demonstrate with the boxes intact as the photos taken on the day showed that such a view was blocked.
They bullied the Fraziers and Victoria Adams who refused to shift, and just wrote lies instead, and discarded witnesses who said things they weren't keen on hearing. I could go on at length about the shabby behaviour of those two men, before even building up to the behaviour of the manipulative little skid-mark Arlen Specter.

I don't subscribe to any of the theories as to who did it. There are too many variables.
I think Warren was stuck between a rock and a hard place, and he caved to Johnson's demand of a result that placed the entire thing in Oswald's lap and shut down anything that might go against that finding.

The conspiracy that I object to is the pretty bloody obvious one, which was Johnson's dread of anyone (including himself) being associated with the killing beyond Oswald. A foreign conspiracy meant war, (NOT the one he was hoping for) and a domestic plot would be devastating for him trying to win the next election as incumbent, and could have led to accusation from both sides at the other side, with him in the middle quite likely being the target of most of those accusations. His sudden presidency fell nicely for him to avoid the looming investigation into the Billie Sols Estes matter... which J Edgar managed to sweep away, after threatening the lawyer who was going after LBJ.
Johnson was corrupt. he was as bent as a nine bob note, but I don't think he was involved in the planning of Kennedy's murder. His response and reaction was too haphazard, and self defensive to the situation had he already been primed for it. The last thing any accomplices would have wanted was LBJ leaning on Hoover for help, (Hoover wasn't behind it either... he was the biggest bastard in the whole story... maybe tied with Allen Dulles actually... but he wasn't in line to get anything for himself or the FBI, as a result. And those were his only two considerations.)

The documentation is all out there, showing how LBJ and Hoover worked to push the "Lone Nut" theory before any evidence was in. How he needed to avoid The House or The Senate conducting a proper inquiry outside of his direct control, while pacifying the Governor of Texas who was pissed off at all the bad press his state was getting and was threatening to pursue their own inquiry, (a Texas inquiry was nipped in the bud by Waggoner Carr and Earl Warren agreeing before the Warren Commission even met, that his Commission would absolutely be "Fair to Texas" (Acting AG Katzenbach had a REAL hard time brokering THAT agreement....)

Hoover even told Johnson there wasn't enough evidence to convict Oswald in a court, so they needed to drive the public into believing he had done it. Hoover was more interested in keeping the FBI clean and tidy after some stone-cold ****-ups on their part.
They tried to bury everything in an enormous morass of paperwork, and never imagined that people would give enough of a **** to dig deep enough to find the important stuff, (they just stamped it "National Security") or that there would ever come a time when documents could be easily searched on the internet by so many people eager to research it.
Fair play to the CIA, they have dug their heels in for over 60 years in terms of compliance with judicial instruction (or the avoidance of it), and dodged spilling their dirtiest secrets over the matter.

But despite all this being out in the public, and easy to read, it's all "Conspiracy Nonsense"...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ball and Belin were notoriously two handed in dealing with witnesses. They were the ones, along with Rankin, who pushed Warren to allow "Off the record" pre testimony interviews, which many of the junior counsels were very much against, (for the obvious reasons that it would look pretty poor that not only were they refusing Oswald any sort of defence counsel, but that they were also coaching and testing witness pre-hearing) where they essentially ran practice runs on witnesses and learned which questions NOT to ask, in order to lead to the "Clean Witness Statements" Warren wanted.

They twisted Bonnie Ray Williams in knots till he finally said something they liked and that became his testimony. They turned Charles Givens into a super witness by somehow, (after several statements and affidavits made to FBI and DPD saying he had last seen Oswald pre 12.00pm when Givens went down for his lunch,) following a closed door session with Belin, he was suddenly on the sixth floor at 12:15 to 12:20 observing Oswald over by the snipers nest. A view that had they checked in advance would have proved pretty difficult to demonstrate with the boxes intact as the photos taken on the day showed that such a view was blocked.
They bullied the Fraziers and Victoria Adams who refused to shift, and just wrote lies instead, and discarded witnesses who said things they weren't keen on hearing. I could go on at length about the shabby behaviour of those two men, before even building up to the behaviour of the manipulative little skid-mark Arlen Specter.

I don't subscribe to any of the theories as to who did it. There are too many variables.
I think Warren was stuck between a rock and a hard place, and he caved to Johnson's demand of a result that placed the entire thing in Oswald's lap and shut down anything that might go against that finding.

The conspiracy that I object to is the pretty bloody obvious one, which was Johnson's dread of anyone (including himself) being associated with the killing beyond Oswald. A foreign conspiracy meant war, (NOT the one he was hoping for) and a domestic plot would be devastating for him trying to win the next election as incumbent, and could have led to accusation from both sides at the other side, with him in the middle quite likely being the target of most of those accusations. His sudden presidency fell nicely for him to avoid the looming investigation into the Billie Sols Estes matter... which J Edgar managed to sweep away, after threatening the lawyer who was going after LBJ.
Johnson was corrupt. he was as bent as a nine bob note, but I don't think he was involved in the planning of Kennedy's murder. His response and reaction was too haphazard, and self defensive to the situation had he already been primed for it. The last thing any accomplices would have wanted was LBJ leaning on Hoover for help, (Hoover wasn't behind it either... he was the biggest bastard in the whole story... maybe tied with Allen Dulles actually... but he wasn't in line to get anything for himself or the FBI, as a result. And those were his only two considerations.)

The documentation is all out there, showing how LBJ and Hoover worked to push the "Lone Nut" theory before any evidence was in. How he needed to avoid The House or The Senate conducting a proper inquiry outside of his direct control, while pacifying the Governor of Texas who was pissed off at all the bad press his state was getting and was threatening to pursue their own inquiry, (a Texas inquiry was nipped in the bud by Waggoner Carr and Earl Warren agreeing before the Warren Commission even met, that his Commission would absolutely be "Fair to Texas" (Acting AG Katzenbach had a REAL hard time brokering THAT agreement....)

Hoover even told Johnson there wasn't enough evidence to convict Oswald in a court, so they needed to drive the public into believing he had done it. Hoover was more interested in keeping the FBI clean and tidy after some stone-cold ****-ups on their part.
They tried to bury everything in an enormous morass of paperwork, and never imagined that people would give enough of a **** to dig deep enough to find the important stuff, (they just stamped it "National Security") or that there would ever come a time when documents could be easily searched on the internet by so many people eager to research it.
Fair play to the CIA, they have dug their heels in for over 60 years in terms of compliance with judicial instruction (or the avoidance of it), and dodged spilling their dirtiest secrets over the matter.

But despite all this being out in the public, and easy to read, it's all "Conspiracy Nonsense"...

Because it is nonsense AP. Just because something is out there to read it doesn’t mean that it’s true. You’re just reading what conspiracy theorist liars like Mark Lane tell you and accepting it as true. This is the trouble with conspiracy supporters they can never run into a conspiracy story that they don’t like. They have no filter. Everything means conspiracy.

No one ‘pushed’ a Lone Nut’ theory. They didn’t need to because Kennedy was killed by a one man working alone. That’s what the evidence tells us. Discussions about LBJ, Hoover, etc are surplus to requirements.

Oswald’s childhood included psychiatric treatment.
Oswald was a traitor who defected.
Oswald cut his wrists in Russia.
Oswald had an unsettled lifestyle.
Oswald was violent to his mother, brother and wife.
Oswald changed the day he went to the Paine’s.
Oswald left all of his money and his wedding ring.
Oswald carried a large package to work.
Oswald dashed into the building without waiting for Frazier.
Oswald pretended that he didn’t know the President was coming.
Oswald’s rifle was found.
Oswald’s rifle shot Kennedy.
Oswald’s prints were on the rifle.
Oswald’s rifle at the Paine’s was missing.
Oswald had previously tried to kill Governor Walker.
Oswald had to be restrained by his wife from shooting Nixon.
Oswald was the only man to leave the building.
Oswald ignore his usual route home.
Oswald refused to speak to the taxi driver.
Oswald got dropped off away from the rooming house and walked back.
Oswald pretended to walk one way then went te other.
Oswald ignore Earlene Roberts.
Oswald picked up a pistol.
Oswald was identified at the Tippit murder scene with a gun.
Oswald was arrested with a gun on him.
Oswald’s gun was the gun that killed Tippit.
Oswald’s wife felt he was guilty.
Oswald’s brother felt him guilty.
Oswald’s friends in the Russian emigré community felt him guilty.


How the hell is this man the innocent dupe that some people have the nerve to claim him to be?

This guy was guiltier than OJ was (and he was a guilty as hell.) Stone cold guilty.

I’ve had enough of this thread. I’d like to go back to the ripper case where there is almost no talk of conspiracy. Obviously everyone on here can carry on. Or they can go listen to Alex Jones and his pals.

[c.d.]

I’ve had enough of this thread.

And to think it only took 3,672 posts to arrive at that conclusion.

I’d like to go back to the ripper case...

Wait...you're saying there is a Ripper case?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve had enough of this thread.

And to think it only took 3,672 posts to arrive at that conclusion.

I’d like to go back to the ripper case...

Wait...you're saying there is a Ripper case?

c.d.

You’re right c.d.

I had no intention of getting drawn back in but I did. No one to blame but me. The subject is a nightmare.

[c.d.]

You're right, Herlock. No one is going to change their mind at this point and the thread has simply deteriorated into a giant pissing match.

c.d.