JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

([/COLOR]Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, p.248)[/I][/INDENT][INDENT]Mr Ball : When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr Frazier : Yes, sir.
Mr Ball : One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to fold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr Frazier : No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr Ball : But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr Frazier : No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr Ball : Cupped in his hand?
Mr Frazier : Right.

No estimated measurement, visual descriptions.

Frazier gave estimated measurements.

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--
Mr. BALL - The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

Frazier did make clear that he did not think it was a lunch sack.

Mr. BALL - Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Frazier also said.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.
Mr. BALL - Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.
Mr. BALL - Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

[Fiver]

What the witnesses actually said:[INDENT][I][COLOR=#2980b9]Mr Ball : What was he [Oswald] carrying?
Mrs Randle : He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.
Mr Ball : Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?
Mrs Randle : That is right.
Mr Ball : And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?
Mrs Randle : No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.
Mr Ball : And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?
Mrs Randle : Yes, sir.

No estimated measurement, visual descriptions.

Randle also gave estimated measurements. Hers was only 5 inches shorter than the bag needed to be to conceal the broken down rifle.

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.

RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.

Randle also said something that makes it clear the package did not contain curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice.
You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to--
Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom.
Mr. BALL. To the bottom?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the top?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Obviously curtain rods are not bulky towards one end.

Lets remember that if Oswald is a patsy, then both Randle and Frazier have to be part of the Conspiracy to frame him. Yet Randle estimates the package was a full foot longer than her brother did. Didn't they get the same memo from the Conspiracy?

[Fiver]

Which Bullet 1 ,2 , or 3 was responsible for James Tagues wound ? let see if we can get a straight answer for a change.

This has been answered multiple times. You ignoring the answers doesn't make them go away.

Tagues' scratch happened because of the first missed shot or because of a fragment of the third bullet that struck JFK's head.

[Fiver]

Difference between F222 and F225 is about 1/10 of a second.

The Zaruder film shot 18.3 frames per second, so the difference between F222 and F225 is about 1/6 of a second.

The time that Kennedy was hit is not in dispute, so what has Jackie looking at Jack got to do with when Connally was hit?

Jackie turning impliesthat JFK has been hit in the throat some time before F222. In that same frema, Connally has clearly already turned sharply to his right , pullting him in position for the bullet that went through JFK's back to go into Connall.

If Connally was turning after he heard the first shot he could not have been hit by that shot (Bullet muzzle velocity 2300fps, speed of sound 1100fps) unless....ahh...a magic bullet.

The single bullet theory clearly says that the first shot missed, so are you sure you understand the single bullet theory?

Lets review:
* Bullet 1 misses JFK and Connally.
* Connally begins to turn to his right.
* Bullet 2 hits JFK and Connally. Zapruder f222 shows both men in a position where that could have happened.

Why are you proffering, as corroboration, the Altgens photo, which was at Z255, about a second after JFK was hit....

The Algens photo is clearly well before Z255. Look at the followup car, where Clint Hill is standing on the front left running board. Now look at JFK - in the Altgen's photo, his arms are in the Thorburn's reflex position, which is visible as early as Z225, as JFK emerges from behind the sign.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Frazier gave estimated measurements.

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--
Mr. BALL - The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

Frazier did make clear that he did not think it was a lunch sack.

Mr. BALL - Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Frazier also said.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.
Mr. BALL - Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.
Mr. BALL - Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

I don’t really get the argument you’re facing Fiver. Lee Harvey Oswald himself admitted that he was carrying a long parcel that wasn’t his lunch pack. He never denied it. He just made up the least believable lie in crime history when he was put on the spot. There were categorically no curtain rods, therefore the question is ‘what did the long package contain?’

I know the answer. You know the answer. Everyone must know the answer.

Therefore we know that Lee Harvey Oswald was sneaking his rifle into work. And just to add to the certainty, Marina and Ruth Paine knew that Oswald kept his rifle in the garage but when the police did a search it was gone. I don’t think that we need a visit to 221b to ask advice on this one.

How can people keep saying that he was innocent? It couldn’t be more straightforward.

[Fiver]

Dr Pierre Finck: Dissecting JFK’s Back and Throat Wounds

When you repeatedly copypaste from http://22november1963.org.uk could you please give them actual credit for their ideas?

[*]The autopsy was carried out by three pathologists, all of them middle–ranking military officers whose only practical experience of forensic autopsies was a one–week course taken by one of the pathologists ten years earlier.

Agreed. Everybody, regardless whether they believe in a Conspiracy, agrees that the Bethesda pathologists were not properly trained for doing a forensic autopsy and that their work was flawed.

[Fiver]

Problems with President Kennedy’s Autopsy[*]The room in which they worked was crowded with a variety of non–medical onlookers, several of whom were giving orders to the pathologists.

A room crowded with onlookers would make it much harder for a Conspiracy to fake medical evidence. This point argues against there being any Conspiracy.

[Fiver]

If the gunman made no attempt to hide the cartridge case evidence it's not clear to me why he decided to hide the rifle. I'm bearing in mind the heightened emotional state a person would likely be in after shooting the POTUS, so any subsequent actions might not be entirely rational. But presuming that speed of exit was of the essence, there seems little point in him stashing the rifle between some cartons a distance away from the window. He knows it's going to be found eventually (I think after about 40 minutes of police searching the 6th floor) so he would have been as well leaving it in the sniper's nest.

You've answered your own question. Hiding the rifle delayed identifying the rifle by 40 minutes, and thus delayed identifying the owner by 40 minutes.

If Oswald was a patsy, the Conspiracy would want the rifle to be identified as soon as possible. They had no reason to hide the rifle and strong reason to leave the rifle in the sniper's nest where it would be found sooner.

[Fiver]

So it's odd that Oswald allegedly took time to hide the rifle then, instead of leaving town, decided to head off to the cinema.

That's an inaccurate description of Oswald's movements.

* Oswald is the only one known to have left the Book Depository immediately after the shooting. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Oswald didn't take his package of "curtain rods" with him when he left. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Oswald left on foot rather than asking Wesley Frazier for a ride. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Oswald walked several blocks to board a bus.
* Oswald got off the bus after a few blocks. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Rather than walking back to the Book Depository and asking Wesley Frazier for a ride, Oswald walked several blocks to hail a taxi. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Oswald had the taxi drop him over a block from where he lived. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Oswald changed clothes, grabbed his pisto;, and left almost immediately. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy..
* Oswald walked several blocks.
* Oswald was stopped by Officer Tippit.
* Oswald shot Officer Tippit and flees on foot. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.
* Oswald snuck into the Texas Theater without paying.
* Oswald tried to shoot the arresting officers. This makes no sense if Oswald was a patsy.

[FISHY1118]

A room crowded with onlookers would make it much harder for a Conspiracy to fake medical evidence. This point argues against there being any Conspiracy.

I suggest you re read exactly what the drs at parkland hospital said when they first saw the back of jfks head.

Your still supporting the WC on the basis that everyone and everything that contradicts its findings was either lying, mistaken, stupid ,or never existed.

[FISHY1118]

This has been answered multiple times. You ignoring the answers doesn't make them go away.

Tagues' scratch happened because of the first missed shot or because of a fragment of the third bullet that struck JFK's head.

Its goes away because you can't prove the thrid shot fired from the tsbd was responsible for the Tague wound ,

Show me how a tiny fragment traveled 100 meters , show me where the warren commission matched that fragment to the rifle they found in the tsbd.

[Lewis C]

You are correct. It may have been a spontaneous reaction by Oswald to enter the cinema.

But I would still have to ask where LHO was headed after he left his rooming house just after 1pm. I don't think he was going to buy shoes at Brewsters.

That's an interesting question. If you believe as I do, that Oswald shot at the president, I don't think that he had any good options. My first instinct is to say, flee to the Mexican border. The problem is that the border is a good distance from Dallas, and Oswald didn't have a car. I don't know what else he could do though.

[Lewis C]

Its goes away because you can't prove the thrid shot fired from the tsbd was responsible for the Tague wound ,

Show me how a tiny fragment traveled 100 meters , show me where the warren commission matched that fragment to the rifle they found in the tsbd.

He also isn't claiming that the 3rd shot is responsible. He said either the 1st shot or the 3rd shot.

[FISHY1118]

When you repeatedly copypaste from http://22november1963.org.uk could you please give them actual credit for their ideas?



Agreed. Everybody, regardless whether they believe in a Conspiracy, agrees that the Bethesda pathologists were not properly trained for doing a forensic autopsy and that their work was flawed.

So were back to there all wrong and mistaken theory?

The Drs. at parkland hospital? Nurse Audrey Bell, John, Connally, James Tague, Mrs Connally, etc, etc, etc

You should try reading that source , most intelligent people who read it quickly throw the Warren Commission theory in the garbage where it belongs.

[FISHY1118]

He also isn't claiming that the 3rd shot is responsible. He said either the 1st shot or the 3rd shot.

Tague claimed he was wounded by the 2nd shot fired.