JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

Oswald was living in a furnished room that wouldn't need curtain rods. Simple explanation - Oswald acquired the curtain rods for someone else, went ahead of Frazier and passed on the curtain rods to that someone else and arrived at the TSBD empty handed.

There are several problems with that theory.
* Oswald told Frazier that Oswald was getting curtain rods for his own apartment, not for someone else.
* Oswald supposedly picked up the curtain rods at Ruth Paine's but he didn't have any curtain rods stored there.
* Ruth Paine did own some spare curtain rods, but they were still there.
* Oswald did not arrive at the door of the Book Depository empty-handed, Frazier observed him entering.
* Oswald said he only brought a lunch bag, not a long package, so either he or both Randle and Frazier were lying.
* No curtain rods were found in the Book Depository.
* Nobody left the Book Depository with curtain rods.

And Randle and Frazier are not the only ones who saw Oswald with a large package.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

We wouldn't know if he told police as records of the interrogations were not kept, and who would have wanted to involve themselves in a Presidential murder plot.

Handwritten notes were made of the various questionings of Oswald. The Dallas Police department did not tape record interrogations for Oswald or anyone else, since they did not own a tape recorder.

Then there is the JtR cop-out - Randle and Frazier were remembering a different day.

This requires Randle, Frazier, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald to all remember the same wrong day.

[Fiver]

Or perhaps they were mistaken, as is contended of all the doctors at Parkland.

The Parkland doctors were trying to save JFK's life, not performing an autopsy.

For example:

Mr. SPECTER - Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to what you observed of his condition?
Dr. PERRY - Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium.
I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the presence of lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from which blood was exuding slowly.
I did not see any other wounds.

[Fiver]

The city took over Dealey Plaza for a ceremonial eulogy for JFK. James Tague was excluded from attending as admission was by ticket. That is what i meant when i said Tague was excluded.He could walk around before and after the ceremony, but Dealey Plaza was roped of for the general public Closed off for the duration of speeches unless you had a ticket. So the city of Dallas here weren't going to give Robert Groden a ticket or James Tague a ticket.
He was interviewed. Yes. Tague spent many hours in the hotel where like minded citizens were gathered. Writers were in that hotel Thompson Mellon, Russell, etc. and books were for sale and Tague wanted to show everyone his book That is where I met and l spoke to James Tague.

Nobody was specifically excluded from attending the 50th Anniversary.

"5,000 tickets to be randomly distributed for JFK 50th event"

[Fiver]

You remember we had this discussion about evidence not being admissible in court. It took a while but you got there. So I still have hope for you.

You have never provided proof that any of the evidence would not be admissible in court and I have never agreed with you on this point.

[FrankO]

I agree that the two men are reacting, but I believe that Kennedy is reacting to being shot and Connally to hearing the shot. Why was Connally turning to look at Kennedy? If he heard a shot he was already hit.

Hi George,

So? If he’s already shot, he can’t be looking back to see what’s happening there? Or do I misunderstand your point?

Connally didn't say that he turned to the right and was shot. He said he turned to the right and had turned back to the left when he felt the shot to his chest. He was also sure that he was shot by a later bullet than the one that hit Kennedy.

Unfortunately, memory isn’t a recording machine.

A man who has been shot through the chest, and the wrist if you believe Specter, doesn't calmly turn around to see what is happening behind him. The pain in his face is clearly visible starting around frame 295, a big contrast to the calm of his face before that.

Firstly, he doesn’t calmy turn around to see what’s happening. If he would have done that, he would have simply moved his right elbow above or on the backrest of his seat to facilitate the turning, but instead he keeps his arm against his body, that way restricting himself in turning backwards. Secondly, the pain in his face is no more clearly visible than it is starting at frame 224. Thirdly, in frame 295 Connally is leaning back into his wife’s lap. How or from where do you think he could have been hit in his back, near his right armpit? And fourthly, according to his wife, Connally held on to his hat until they arrived at the hospital.

The movements in his head and body and shoulders are simply a function of his turning around in a car seat.

Would that include the movement of the lapel of his jacket? Or the odd flipping of his hat? And why first turn forward? And what’s with the rapid lowering of his right shoulder? From frame 227 to 229 he lowers it significantly. That’s 0.22 seconds.

That's how I see it.

Even though I don't find it convincing, thanks for sharing it.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now then Herlock. Adjusting testimony to suit a purpose just isn't cricket. It's like giving a batsman out before he comes out of the pavilion.

See post 3151 for the relevant testimony. If you conduct the experiment you'll find that an object 24" long will fit under the armpit while cupped in the hand, but an object 34.5 inches long definitely will not. You've probably seen the copyrighted photo of the alleged bag shown here:

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/bag.htm

Not something that would be out of sight behind a shoulder.

Where does it say that the end of the package was in his ‘armpit’ though George? The package in the photo is the package that Oswald was carrying. Frazer was simply mistaken as to the size. There is no mystery. What we know for a fact though George is that no curtain rods were ever found, because they never existed. This really is straightforward.

If there was no general talk of conspiracy which has caused the most egregious and ongoing cases of confirmation bias in history, we would simply be looking at evidence as it stood. We know that witnesses can make errors in regard to exact colour, exact size, exact shape etc but they don’t usually imagine the existence of something. So we know that Oswald was definitely carrying a long package. We know that it wasn’t his sandwiches. No evidence for the existence of curtain rods exists so we know that it wasn’t rods. We know that he kept a rifle at the Paine’s. We know that rifle was missing after the murder. This is black and white.

A second point though George is why would a group of conspirators go to these insane lengths requiring errors/lies and the planting of packaging when they could have just had one gunman with an escape plan. I realise the those supporting conspiracy have an aversion to simplicity, efficiency and security when it comes to plots but here were are again. More complications for our plotters. I can’t imagine a more convoluted, risk-laden, luck-reliant plot can you George?

[Fiver]

This imaginary conspiracy of thousands fantasy is rather a self indulgent domino for you as it is easy to knock that domino down. This non existent conspiracy is not what anyone here is claiming. Every organization has agendas.

Congrats on completely misrepresenting my position. Even Garrison's alphabet soup of accused organizations probably wouldn't make it to much more than 1000 Conspirators.

Organizations do have agendas. They also aren't composed entirely of mindless fanatics willing to commit treason and murder for the boss. So far, no one has proposed any credible reason for any organization to want to murder JFK, let alone for rival organizations to cooperate on it. And that's before we consider the dozens of people not part of any organization that would have to be part of the Conspiracy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Parkland doctors were trying to save JFK's life, not performing an autopsy.

For example:

Mr. SPECTER - Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to what you observed of his condition?
Dr. PERRY - Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium.
I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the presence of lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from which blood was exuding slowly.
I did not see any other wounds.

From memory, wasn’t it McClelland who got the wrong side of Kennedy’s head for the wound before changing back?

Then we have supernurse Bell who conspiracy theorists reckon pushed her way past the Doctor’s around the table working on Kennedy just so that she could be given a look at the wound? Yeah right.

Then, which was the Parkland doctor who wasn’t actually in the room (as per other doctors) Was that Crenshaw? - I recall him being blatantly dodgy.

[FrankO]

This is what the footage tells us. There is just no way that two shots can be assumed. Then when we see that the one shot hitting both men lined up perfectly I can’t see a problem. It stemmed from Garrison’s witch hunt as many things do. No one had lined up the shots correctly until much later on by which time this ‘Magic Bullet’ theory had become an accepted part of the language. We now know that it’s nonsense of course and that the same bullet hit two the two men. And ironically no conspiracy supporter can account for their ‘Vanishing Bullet’ theory.

Hi Mike,

Even if we're just considering their relative positions, it's hard to see how a bullet striking JFK in the back from behind would miss Connally.

Cheers,
Frank

[Fiver]

The second shot according to you then is c399 yes?

Correct.

If the first shot missed then 399 must have caused Tagues and Connallys wound ?

I have never claimed that CE 399 caused Tague's wound. I have said this clearly and repeatedly. CE 399 could not have caused Tague's wound.

CE 399 did cause Connally's wounds. Forensic testing showed that bullet fragments taken from Connally's wounds must have come from CE 399.

Or you must think Tagues wound was the third head shot which I've asked to see the evidence of that with no answer.

I have clearly and repeated said that Tague's wound was caused by the first shot ricocheting or by a fragment of the bullet that hit JFK's head. I lean towards it being the bullet that missed the limo, but here is no way of confirming which.

Your four bullet theory also requires a shot that missed the limo ricocheting and causing Tague's wound, so I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[Fiver]

Let me make it simple 2 or more people could conspire to commit a murder or crime , countless other could be used to cover it up without knowledge of that event ..

Anyone giving false statements or falsifying evidence would know that doing so would make them part of a criminal conspiracy and have strong suspicions that it would make them an accessory to the murder of the President.

[Fiver]

Oswald would certainly have known that JFK was visiting Dallas but not necessarily that the President was passing the TSBD on route.

Every other employee at the Book Depository knew that JFK's route took him past the Book Depository, so it's not credible that Oswald didn't know.

If Oswald was the malcontent marxist with a grudge described in the WC report, he passed up a big opportunity a month earlier, 25th October I think, when Adlai Stevenson visited Dallas. Stevenson was admittedly more a dove than a hawk on matters Cuba -which is presumably why he was attacked by some Texan burghers- but his visit was surely worth Oswald dusting down the Carcano to get in some shooting practice.

You have already answered why Oswald would not be interested in shooting Stevenson and Stevenson didn't drive by Oswald's place of work on a route published in the newspapers.

And although Kennedy's comments on Cuba may have riled Oswald, I would have thought McCarthyite supporter and failed presidential candidate Richard Nixon offered a more appealing target. Nixon was in Dallas in a legal capacity on the 21st November, speaking at a hotel within walking distance of the TSBD.

Nixon was attending the annual convention of the American Bottlers of Carbonated Beverages as an attorney for Pepsi. He didn't drive by Oswald's place of work on a route published in the newspapers.

[Fiver]

I agree that the two men are reacting, but I believe that Kennedy is reacting to being shot and Connally to hearing the shot. Why was Connally turning to look at Kennedy? If he heard a shot he was already hit.

This is yet another fundamental misunderstanding of the single bullet theory.
* The first shot misses the limo entirely.
* Connally reacys to the first shot by turning to his right, trying to see the President.
* The second bullet strikes JFK, passes through the soft tissues of his neck, then strikes Connally.

[Fiver]

Exactly. Dougherty saw Oswald out of the corner of his eye and was paying him no attention. He didn’t notice him carrying anything. “I didn’t notice anything, if he did.”

Dougherty also would not have had a completely unobstructed view, as is shown at 8:35 in the Lemmino video.

[Fiver]

Frazier's estimate was about 24", give or take an inch.

Frazier was not that precise.

Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.