JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Oswald claimed that the bag contained curtain rods. Frazier believed the bag was large enough to carry curtain rods, so clearly this was not just a lunch sack. Oswald did not need curtain rods, his apartment already had them. Oswald did not take the bag with him when he left the Book Depository. No curtain rods were found at the Book Depository. A paper bag large enough to hold the disassembled rifle was found in the sniper's nest. The bag had Oswald's finger and palm prints in positions that matched the way Frazier and Randle saw Oswald carrying the bag of "curtain rods".

What the witnesses actually said:

Mr Ball : What was he [Oswald] carrying?
Mrs Randle : He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.
Mr Ball : Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?
Mrs Randle : That is right.
Mr Ball : And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?
Mrs Randle : No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.
Mr Ball : And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?
Mrs Randle : Yes, sir.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, p.248)

Mr Ball : When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr Frazier : Yes, sir.
Mr Ball : One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to fold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr Frazier : No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr Ball : But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr Frazier : No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr Ball : Cupped in his hand?
Mr Frazier : Right.

No estimated measurement, visual descriptions.

Warren Commission Report Page 81:
The rifle is 40.2 inches long and weighs 8 pounds. The minimum length broken down is 34.8 inches, the length of the wooden stock

Take the test yourself. Take a tape measure and set it to 34.8 inches. Now try to hold it vertically in your right hand and see if it if the end is "almost touching the ground", remembering that LHO was 5' 8". Next, cup one end in your right hand and see if you can fit the other end under your armpit.

[scottnapa]

[QUOTE=Fiver;n849319]




* Tague thought he was struck by the second bullet. I disagree. You think he's right.
* Tague thought there were three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.
* Tague thought all shots came from the Book Depository. I agree. You think he's wrong.


Tauge was the third victim in Dealy Plaza. The only one alive at the 50th anniversay in Dallas. The City officials refused to invite Tauge, told him he was not welcome becasue he has come to the conclusion that there was a conspiracy. Every day citizens of Dallas believe in a conspiracy becasue the Ruby knew the police and the let him have access.

[FISHY1118]

The single bullet theory does require Connally to be turned to the right, and he does do so, but after Kennedy has been shot.



As Kennedy emerges from behind the sign he is showing signs of having been shot. Connally's head is turned to the right but his body is facing nearly directly forward.

The Zapruder film shows exactly what Connally said happened. He heard the shot and turned to the right to try to see Kennedy. When he completed his right turn he was showing no sign of physical distress. He said that he was turning back to the left when a shot hit him. This is shown on the Zapruder film, that shot occurring just before (about frame 295, or 0.7 seconds) the Kennedy head shot.



A review of the HSCA audio expert's review shows there is 4.8 seconds between shots #3 and #4 just like the Zapruder film shows there was 4.8 seconds between shots at Z fame 224 and Zapruder frame 313.

No matter how hard they try, the ''Why would he'' ''Why wouldnt he'',''Why didnt he gang'' just cant accept the ''proof'' that in fact Connally was right . He was hit by a Separate bullet that hit Kennedy in the back and throat , the magic bullet theory is a crock of shite . The Sad thing is George they know it but just cant accept the fact their wrong .

[FISHY1118]

[QUOTE=scottnapa;n849397]

* Tague thought he was struck by the second bullet. I disagree. You think he's right.
* Tague thought there were three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.
* Tague thought all shots came from the Book Depository. I agree. You think he's wrong.


Tauge was the third victim in Dealy Plaza. The only one alive at the 50th anniversay in Dallas. The City officials refused to invite Tauge, told him he was not welcome becasue he has come to the conclusion that there was a conspiracy. Every day citizens of Dallas believe in a conspiracy becasue the Ruby knew the police and the let him have access.

James Tague and John Connally more than anyone else Totally blow out of the water the 3 bullet Lone guman Warren Commission coverup .

That lie has now been shown up for the garbage that it was . Shame on them .

[FISHY1118]

That's a rather ironic statement for you to make.

* Connally thought the first bullet hit JFK. I disagree. You think he's right.
* Connally thought there were three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.
* Connally thought all shots came from the Book Depository. I agree. You think he's wrong.
* Connally thought Oswald fired all three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.
* Connally thought there was no Conspiracy. I agree. You think he's wrong.

* Tague thought he was struck by the second bullet. I disagree. You think he's right.
* Tague thought there were three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.
* Tague thought all shots came from the Book Depository. I agree. You think he's wrong.

I disagree with the witnesses on 2 points. You disagree with the witnesses on 6 points.

I think we've established who is relying on the witnesses being completely wrong.

''Connally thought there were three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.''


Not so, i said yes to connally saying thought 3 shots came from behind tsbd ,its the 4th shot he didnt hear, as it was almost simultaniously fired as the 3rd . This is backed up by dozens of other witnesses.


''Tague thought he was struck by the second bullet. I disagree. You think he's right.''


Not so , I said Tague was wounded as a result of the 2nd bullet that struck the curve .



''Tague thought there were three shots. I agree. You think he's wrong.''


See first point on connally.







'Tague thought he was struck by the second bullet. I disagree. You think he's right.''


Which Bullet 1 ,2 , or 3 was responsible for James Tagues wound ? let see if we can get a straight answer for a change.

[FISHY1118]

That is incorrect.

2% of the witnesses heard 1 shot.
12% of the witnesses heard 2 shots.
80% of the witnesses heard 3 shots.
5% of the witnesses heard 4 or more shots.

A more detailed tabulation on number of shots shows that out of 178 witnesses:
* 6 thought there were 4 shots.
* 1 thought there were 4 or 5 shots.
* 1 thought there were 5 shots.
* 1 thought there were 6 shots.
* 1 thought there were 8 shots.

That's not even a dozen, let alone dozens that thought they heard 4 or more shots.

What about the ones who claimed the 3rd and 4th were almost at the same time that werent asked or allowed to give evidence to the W.C

[Fiver]

The single bullet theory does require Connally to be turned to the right, and he does do so, but after Kennedy has been shot.

You're looking at the wrong Zapruder frame.

Here's frame 222. Note how Jackie has turned to look at her husband and how Connally is turned sharply to his right, as he said he did when he heard the first shot. It's not just Connaly's head, it's his whole body.




Here's the same scene from a different angle, the Altgen's photo. JFK's hands are at his throat, elbows raised. Jackie has grabbed JFK's left arm, trying to pull it down. Connaly has turned so far to the right his torso is almost pointed sideways, something Connally only did after hearing the first shot.



At the time of the throat strike to JFK, Connally is in the position where the single bullet passing through JFK could have caused the wounds to Connaly as well.

[Fiver]

A review of the HSCA audio expert's review shows there is 4.8 seconds between shots #3 and #4 just like the Zapruder film shows there was 4.8 seconds between shots at Z fame 224 and Zapruder frame 313.

The HSCA audio was debunked in 1979.

[Fiver]

Tauge was the third victim in Dealy Plaza. The only one alive at the 50th anniversay in Dallas. The City officials refused to invite Tauge, told him he was not welcome becasue he has come to the conclusion that there was a conspiracy.

That seems unlikely.

Here's an article from 1 day before the 50th anniversary of the shooting, with pictures and an interview with James Tague in Dealey Plaza.

Here's a video interview with Tague that same day, 21 November, 2013 in Dealey Plaza.

And here's yet another interview with Tague broadcast on the 50th anniversary.

[Fiver]

What about the ones who claimed the 3rd and 4th were almost at the same time that werent asked or allowed to give evidence to the W.C

Feel free to list who these witnesses were that "claimed the 3rd and 4th were almost at the same time" and weren't allowed to testify.

[GBinOz]

You're looking at the wrong Zapruder frame.

Here's frame 222. Note how Jackie has turned to look at her husband and how Connally is turned sharply to his right, as he said he did when he heard the first shot. It's not just Connaly's head, it's his whole body.




Here's the same scene from a different angle, the Altgen's photo. JFK's hands are at his throat, elbows raised. Jackie has grabbed JFK's left arm, trying to pull it down. Connaly has turned so far to the right his torso is almost pointed sideways, something Connally only did after hearing the first shot.



At the time of the throat strike to JFK, Connally is in the position where the single bullet passing through JFK could have caused the wounds to Connaly as well.

Difference between F222 and F225 is about 1/10 of a second. Mighty quick turn if it were so, but it isn't, as he is still facing forward. The time that Kennedy was hit is not in dispute, so what has Jackie looking at Jack got to do with when Connally was hit? If Connally was turning after he heard the first shot he could not have been hit by that shot (Bullet muzzle velocity 2300fps, speed of sound 1100fps) unless....ahh...a magic bullet.
Why are you proffering, as corroboration, the Altgens photo, which was at Z255, about a second after JFK was hit...oh yes... I forgot...the magic bullet hanging in mid air while Connally turned to place himself in a position to line up to intercept it. This is exactly the sort of nonsense used to prop up this ridiculous theory. The Zapruder film shows definitively that Connally was suffering NO distress from a wound until long after the first Kennedy wound had taken place. Or are you claiming a debunking of the Zapruder film along with the corroborating HSCA Audio.

[Fiver]

([/COLOR]Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, p.248)[/I][/INDENT][INDENT]Mr Ball : When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr Frazier : Yes, sir.
Mr Ball : One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to fold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr Frazier : No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr Ball : But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr Frazier : No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr Ball : Cupped in his hand?
Mr Frazier : Right.

No estimated measurement, visual descriptions.

Frazier gave estimated measurements.

Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--
Mr. BALL - The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

Frazier did make clear that he did not think it was a lunch sack.

Mr. BALL - Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Frazier also said.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.
Mr. BALL - Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.
Mr. BALL - Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

[Fiver]

What the witnesses actually said:[INDENT][I][COLOR=#2980b9]Mr Ball : What was he [Oswald] carrying?
Mrs Randle : He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.
Mr Ball : Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?
Mrs Randle : That is right.
Mr Ball : And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?
Mrs Randle : No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.
Mr Ball : And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?
Mrs Randle : Yes, sir.

No estimated measurement, visual descriptions.

Randle also gave estimated measurements. Hers was only 5 inches shorter than the bag needed to be to conceal the broken down rifle.

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.

RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.

Randle also said something that makes it clear the package did not contain curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice.
You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to--
Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom.
Mr. BALL. To the bottom?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the top?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Obviously curtain rods are not bulky towards one end.

Lets remember that if Oswald is a patsy, then both Randle and Frazier have to be part of the Conspiracy to frame him. Yet Randle estimates the package was a full foot longer than her brother did. Didn't they get the same memo from the Conspiracy?

[Fiver]

Which Bullet 1 ,2 , or 3 was responsible for James Tagues wound ? let see if we can get a straight answer for a change.

This has been answered multiple times. You ignoring the answers doesn't make them go away.

Tagues' scratch happened because of the first missed shot or because of a fragment of the third bullet that struck JFK's head.

[Fiver]

Difference between F222 and F225 is about 1/10 of a second.

The Zaruder film shot 18.3 frames per second, so the difference between F222 and F225 is about 1/6 of a second.

The time that Kennedy was hit is not in dispute, so what has Jackie looking at Jack got to do with when Connally was hit?

Jackie turning impliesthat JFK has been hit in the throat some time before F222. In that same frema, Connally has clearly already turned sharply to his right , pullting him in position for the bullet that went through JFK's back to go into Connall.

If Connally was turning after he heard the first shot he could not have been hit by that shot (Bullet muzzle velocity 2300fps, speed of sound 1100fps) unless....ahh...a magic bullet.

The single bullet theory clearly says that the first shot missed, so are you sure you understand the single bullet theory?

Lets review:
* Bullet 1 misses JFK and Connally.
* Connally begins to turn to his right.
* Bullet 2 hits JFK and Connally. Zapruder f222 shows both men in a position where that could have happened.

Why are you proffering, as corroboration, the Altgens photo, which was at Z255, about a second after JFK was hit....

The Algens photo is clearly well before Z255. Look at the followup car, where Clint Hill is standing on the front left running board. Now look at JFK - in the Altgen's photo, his arms are in the Thorburn's reflex position, which is visible as early as Z225, as JFK emerges from behind the sign.