JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

The ‘why would’s’ accumulate George because they never get answered properly as your responses have just proven. And there’s another little dig on the subject of ‘lawyers.’

I don’t care about Fiester. She’s the latest in a long list of fantasists who seek to drown the obvious in a huge turgid lake numbers that Conspiracy theorists find endlessly exciting unless they don’t suit their cause.

You are free to believe what you want to.

You seem to define improper answers as the ones that disagree with your opinion. I'm sure that you are aware that the American legal system is not based on "truth and justice", but on muddying the waters, raising unlikely alternatives and offering plea bargains to the first to accept. Perry stated the throat wound was an entry wound, but was badgered into admitting that he wasn't perfect and was capable of error. This was then seized upon to turn an entry wound into an exit wound in the throat for a downward angled shot in the back that Hume stated did not exit the body. Nonsense of the highest order.

Since I am free to believe what I want, I'll believe the findings of the forensic scientist over legal double talk. Incredibly, you openly state your denial of science, labelling it as fantasy and pushing the absurd magic bullet theory contrived by Specter. The throat shot and the head shot came from the south knoll. That is the scientific fact.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You seem to define improper answers as the ones that disagree with your opinion. I'm sure that you are aware that the American legal system is not based on "truth and justice", but on muddying the waters, raising unlikely alternatives and offering plea bargains to the first to accept. Perry stated the throat wound was an entry wound, but was badgered into admitting that he wasn't perfect and was capable of error. This was then seized upon to turn an entry wound into an exit wound in the throat for a downward angled shot in the back that Hume stated did not exit the body. Nonsense of the highest order.

Since I am free to believe what I want, I'll believe the findings of the forensic scientist over legal double talk. Incredibly, you openly state your denial of science, labelling it as fantasy and pushing the absurd magic bullet theory contrived by Specter. The throat shot and the head shot came from the south knoll. That is the scientific fact.

The response to #2 isn’t an answer George. It’s a random assumption.
You didn’t make any response to #3.
Your response #4 only took into account those bystanders on the Knoll (even though there was nothing to prevent them turning round as they weren’t glued to the spot) but you ignore those on the opposite side who were looking toward the Knoll who could have seen, photographed or filmed the gunman in situ.
The response to number #5 wasn’t a direct response to my point. It was just a way of pointing an ‘unutterably stupid’ comment toward myself and others that don’t conform to the conspiracy myth.
The response to #6 was a random claim that it was somehow established the competent assassinations used crossfire. I produced a number of assassinations that were successful none of which employed crossfire. You chose not to illustrate your suggestion with examples. If there are examples fine, produce them. I can’t find any.
The response to #7 was simply a ‘the more the merrier’ point which smacks of an answer just for the sake of an answer. You don’t need 100’s of conspirators to shoot someone in the head. Only if your plot is so ridiculously convoluted that you need army of people doing follow up work.
The response to #8 doesn’t address my point in any way.
The response to #9 was just a general ‘they were all in on it and they covered it up’ point which didn’t address my point.
The response to #10 was the usual denial of the obvious and an assumption of subterfuge.

I agree George, you are entirely free to believe what you want but for every ‘expert’ who makes a claim other ‘experts’ can be found that gives a different and often opposing view. I have never labelled science as fantasy as you claim but what I do claim is that you are selecting an expert or a group of experts who say that something is proven whilst ignoring the other experts who say that it isn’t proven. The so-called magic bullet theory has been proven. It lines up to the millimetre.

Nothing that you say about the autopsy is fact George. That a corrupt autopsy took place is nonsense. What you and others are suggesting is a group of conspirators having a choice between two options:

A) They get a top sniper with a top weapon, hide him at a convenient point, he shoots the President in the head with the most damaging weapon/bullet combo available so no chance of just a wound occurring, he then walks away into a waiting car. He disappears. Simple, straightforward, very few in a ‘need to know’ position, nothing required after the event apart from escape, no one to blab, no photos faking, no dodgy autopsies.

or,

B) The pick a guy who the public find out was a former defector to the Soviet Union, he has to try and sneak a rifle into work, they have to hope that no one can categorically prove that he wasn’t on the 6th floor, they have to plant fingerprints on the rifle, they have to hope that no one finds a 4th bullet because they’ve only decided to plant 3 cartridges, they don’t bother providing an escape, they have to set up a fake autopsy using God know’s how many people (anyone of whom might have slipped up and spilled the beans or one day had an attack of conscience or made some death bed confession) then the President sets up a commission of people from the left and right headed by a man who saw Kennedy as a second son and persuades them all to betray their country and the President that most of them respected greatly.

And you and the rest of those on the conspiracy side actually go for option B (or a version of it - including swapping weapons and things like that)

It beggars belief George. This simply cannot have happened. It’s spy novel stuff. Mission Improbable.

There’s no need to respond George (and no, I’m not trying to give you orders) because I really would prefer to leave it at that. The debates on this subject get us nowhere. Believe what you want to believe and I’ll do the same.

[Fiver]

Like so many points that people consider "truth" The Warren Commission printed their conclusion ignoring the evidence given to them by experts. There was no defence counsel, so everyone they called in to do such testing and examination were hired by THEM. When their own experts are saying "That conclusion can not be reached by the evidence" why would they simply decide to ignore that expert guidance?

That is an inaccurate summary of what the experts said.

* The photographic expert said that the backyard photos were taken with Oswald's camera to the exclusion of all others. He said that, while the sling was different, the dimensions and distinguishing marks of the rifle in the photo matched the Book Depository gun. The photographic expert said that there were not enough distinguishing marks to be 100% certain.

* The fiber analysis expert said that all fibers found on the rifle and the paper bag matched the blanket that Oswald's rifle had been wrapped in, but there were not enough fiber types to be 100% certain.

* The fingerprint expert said that loops and whorls of the partial print found on the rifle trigger guard matched Oswald's prints. but there wasn't enough of a pront to be 100% certain.

[Fiver]

The bullets are the W.C downfall.

The bullets are the downfall of those who believe there was a shooter firing from the front of the limo, because they left no bullet fragments in JFK's head.

[Fiver]

[*]The bag that was produced in evidence was almost certainly not found at the scene of the crime: the police officers who first came across the alleged sniper’s nest gave confused testimony about whether there was a paper bag nearby...

Six police officers testified that the paper bag was found on the six floor of the Depository. While to of those officers were keaving the Book Depository with the bag, they were photographed by Jack Beers of the Dallas Morning News, William Allen of the Dallas Times-Herald and George Smith of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/images/bagpic.htm

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/images/bag.htm

...and none of the crime scene photographs showed the bag in situ.

Not taking a picture of the paper bag where it was found was an error, but that is not proof the error was made by a Conspiracy.

[Fiver]

[*]Oswald could not have assembled the bag: although it had been constructed from wrapping paper and tape used at the depository, the bag could only have been assembled at the building’s wrapping table, to which Oswald did not have access.

This is another error on the part of your source. Anyone could have had access to the wrapping paper and tape.

Mr. BELIN - Are you the only one that wraps the books for mailing, or wraps them up for mailing?
Mr. WEST - Well, no, sir; I am not the only one, but mine is that way just every day.
Mr. BELIN - You do it all the time?
Mr. WEST - Yes; I do that.
Mr. BELIN - Are you the only one who does it all the time?
Mr. WEST - I am the only one that is steady, wraps mail all the time, although I have help, you know, when it gets stacked.
Mr. BELIN - Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever help you wrap mail?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; he never did.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not he ever borrowed or used any wrapping paper for himself?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN - You don't know?
Mr. WEST - No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN - Is yours the only place that they have the sticky tape?
Mr. WEST - Well, that is the only place that is supposed to be, you know.
Mr. BELIN - Could other employees come and pick up some of the tape for themselves?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; they could come get it if they wanted to use it, but all the time it was there where it is supposed to be.
Mr. BELIN - Did other employees from time to time come and borrow some of that tape at all, or use it? Would other employees ever use any of the tape for themselves?
Mr. WEST - Not as far as I know of now.

[Fiver]

The conspiracy arose when Johnson needed to convince the public of a lone assassin rather than a plot by a foreign government. The single bullet theory was contrived by a lawyer to address that aim, and carefully avoided medical and ballistic imperatives.

LBJ and no doubt everyone had a vested interest in the assassination not being a plot by the Soviets, since they didn't want World War III. Blaming it on the Cuban government. OTOH, would have provided an excuse for everything that JFK and the CIA had done to topple Castro.

As has already been shown, LBJ didn't believe in the single bullet theory. I guess he didn't get the Conspiracy memo.

[Fiver]

Two Stones, but no mention of Burkley or Sherry Fiester?.

Admiral Burkley, JFK's physician, persuaded Mrs. Kennedy that an autopsy was necessary on the plane flight back to Washington. Given the choice between Walter Reed Army Hospital, Bethesda Navy Hospital, or any civilian hospital she wanted, Mrs. Kennedy choose Bethesda.

Or are you referring to another Burkley?

[Lewis C]

Just to add a final point that I forgot at the time.

2. Why did the ‘innocent’ Lee leave his wedding ring and $175 (pretty much every cent that he owned) if he was just heading off to a normal day at work?

A dangerous day as a CIA asset.

Which might be true if he was a CIA asset but he wasn’t. Why do you assume a complex answer whilst ignoring the obvious? His gun was missing from its hiding place, he carried a large parcel, no curtain rods were ever found, he pretended that he didn’t know Kennedy was coming. Clearly he was intending to shoot Kennedy

Addition - If he was a CIA asset then he was a CIA asset every day and not just one day per year. So what is being suggested? That Oswald knew that today was the day that he’d be set up as the murderer of the President? Surely you can’t believe that? Something very significant was clearly going on that day and Oswald was aware of it before he left the house (carrying his rifle - proven by the fact that he felt the need for the curtain rods lie)

Absolutely Herlock, which is why when I first read George's statement I thought he meant that it would be a dangerous day as a CIA agent because he would be shooting JFK on behalf of the CIA. So I was ready to respond that if that were the case, it would mean that there a was a conspiracy, but it certainly wouldn't mean that Oswald was innocent. But now that you mention it, I think your interpretation is probably what he meant.

[Lewis C]

Herlock: Why would Earl Warren, who worshipped the ground that Kennedy walked on, have presided over a corrupt commission? Why would he and the other Kennedy admirers (counsels, staff etc) have done so? Were not one of them decent, patriotic men? Those men that all saw military service. It’s very easy and very ‘trendy’ to sit on a forum and accuse people of being traitors to their country because the ‘all authority and all institutions are evil’ attitude is the one that’s on trend these days but to some people, especially in years passed, felt a strong duty to their country. This was less than 20 years after the end of WW2 and during the Cold War.

George: Orders from higher authority. The dissenting opinions were suppressed.

Herlock: A convenient assumption with no evidence to back it up. An no, errors and omissions don’t justify a response of conspiracy and yet that’s what happened. It’s nothing more than a cliché.

Me: I'll add that Earl Warren was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, so there is no higher authority than him. Under the US system of checks and balances and separation of power, even the President wasn't a higher authority than the Chief Justice. (Nor is the Chief Justice a higher authority than the President. The US government isn't fully hierarchical.) Warren wouldn't have had to take orders from anyone.

[Fiver]

Decoy - where are all these photos and films from people who were looking the other way at the President?

There were people with cameras on both sides of Elm Street. Marie Muchmore, Tina Towner, and Orville Nix were all facing the Grassy Knoll with film cameras and Muchmore and Nix both captured the fatal headshot. James Altgens, Wilma Bond, Jim Towner, Cecil Stroughton, and Mary Moorman were also taking still photos from that side of the street. Moorman got a still shot at roughly the time of the fatal headshot. Charles Bronson took pictures with both still and motion picture cameras and got a picture of the limo just after the first shot. (It also debunks the Badgeman theory.)

That's nine witnesses that the Conspiracy has to identify, track, and confirm that they didn't get pictures of anything incriminating.

Now we have the three camera cars, full of press with both still and motion picture cameras. Everyone of those reporters has to be checked before their film is shown publcally, to make sure they didn't capture anything incriminating.

Then there's the 15+ people on the North Lawn equipped with the Mark I Eyeball. The Conspiracy can't count on all of them freezing, ducking, or looking towards the Book Depository. Every one of them has to be vetted to make sure they didn't see something suspicious.

Then you have to get all of these roughly 40 people to agree to be accessories after the fact to the murder of JFK and to stay silent for the rest of their lives.

The more you look at the Grassy Knoll, the worse the idea it is to put a second shooter there.

Who's running this Conspiracy - Moe, Larry, and Curly?

[Fiver]

Any competent assassination attempt uses a crossfire from different positions to ensure the job gets done.

That's what a dozen assassins attempted in 1962 against Charles De Gaulle. 187 shots fired. 14 hit De Gaulle's vehicle.

Total dead - zero.

Total injuries - a random bystander was lightly wounded and Madame De Gaulle got a small cut on her hand brushing broken glass off.

Some of the Conspirators were caught. One talked. Ten were arrested. Six fled the country and were tried in absentia. One committed suicide, one was executed, the other 14 were sentenced to death or long prison terms.

[Fiver]

See 6. The fewer the people, the less the chance of achieving the objective.

You are ignoring that the alleged Conspiracy had multiple objectives.

* Kill JFK.
* Frame a lone gunman.
* Don't get caught.

More shooters increase the chance the target dies, but attacking when the target is in a moving vehicle greatly reduces the chance of success. And if JFK hadn't have insisted on not having the top on the limo, the Conspiracy wouldn't have had a clear shot from any direction.

The Conspiracy would have had a much easier target that morning in Ft Worth, when JFK spoke behind a podium on a raised platform in the open, with a lot of windows and roofs overlooking the site.

Framing someone means faking a lot of evidence and eyewitness testimony. That adds a lot more people to the Conspiracy, greatly increasing the chance of getting caught.

Every additional shooter reduces the chance of the frame working and adds dozens of more Conspirators. It's much worse if you fire shots from locations that your patsy couldn't have possibly fired from.

With hundreds of Conspirators, many from rival groups, there is no way someone wouldn't have talked.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock: Why would Earl Warren, who worshipped the ground that Kennedy walked on, have presided over a corrupt commission? Why would he and the other Kennedy admirers (counsels, staff etc) have done so? Were not one of them decent, patriotic men? Those men that all saw military service. It’s very easy and very ‘trendy’ to sit on a forum and accuse people of being traitors to their country because the ‘all authority and all institutions are evil’ attitude is the one that’s on trend these days but to some people, especially in years passed, felt a strong duty to their country. This was less than 20 years after the end of WW2 and during the Cold War.

George: Orders from higher authority. The dissenting opinions were suppressed.

Herlock: A convenient assumption with no evidence to back it up. An no, errors and omissions don’t justify a response of conspiracy and yet that’s what happened. It’s nothing more than a cliché.

Me: I'll add that Earl Warren was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, so there is no higher authority than him. Under the US system of checks and balances and separation of power, even the President wasn't a higher authority than the Chief Justice. (Nor is the Chief Justice a higher authority than the President. The US government isn't fully hierarchical.) Warren wouldn't have had to take orders from anyone.

And every indication was that Warren was a deeply patriotic man who loved Kennedy and who had to be persuaded by Johnson to do a job that he didn’t want to do. Of course, just like anything in this case, this gives grounds for conspiracy as it’s used as ‘Warren not wanting to take part in a conspiracy’ but this is clearly nonsense. Warren however was one of the reasons that councils on the commission complained (again giving rise to conspiracy talk) They believed that he at times put consideration for the feelings of the Kennedy family first.

[FISHY1118]

Why would you think that the assassins needed to play parts in a conspiracy play. They were there only to ensure the death of Kennedy. The conspiracy arose when Johnson needed to convince the public of a lone assassin rather than a plot by a foreign government. The single bullet theory was contrived by a lawyer to address that aim, and carefully avoided medical and ballistic imperatives.

Have you heard of the Kansas City shuffle - when everybody looks right, you go left. Bullets from the rear to draw attention from the actual assassin at the front left. Should we rely on the "what if" and "why would" opinions of lawyers, or the medical and forensic ballistic proofs of someone like the late Sherry Fiester? Hmmm...let me think. It's all there in the links I posted.

I think that I am starting to agree with Fishy - it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong

Well George i just couldnt help myself after reading your post . I will leave you to continue on for now with the ''Why would they'' , ''Why Wouldnt they gang'' but of all the Contradictions and Inconsistancies [i.e Bullls$#%] the magic bullet ,3 shot lone gunman is by far an away their achillies heal.

This one quote from Governor John Connally, which is verified by his wife and two motorbike police officers, is game over for the Warren Comission Conspiracy.

If Connally is correct ,and as yet no one has given an even remotely half desent explanation as to why he isnt, then by definition there has to be a 4th shot .


Connally’s testimony: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, pp.135f. He was quoted in the Washington Post, 21 November 1966, saying that “there is my absolute knowledge that … one bullet caused the president’s first wound and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.” It was Connally’s testimony that persuaded one of the Warren Commissioners, Senator Richard Russell, that the single–bullet theory was untenable; see Richard Russell and the Warren Report [ Connally must have surely lied again]


and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.”

and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.”

and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.”

and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind.”

You think it would sink in by now !!!




Here,s their Reponse , ''Oh but Connally was disorientated , and under all kinds of stress and trauma and shock !!!!! . What nonsense, and frankly what an insult to the intelligence of him and his wife, and their memory . Truly Shameful IMO

Yes Connally is on record as stating 'all three shots hit there mark , and yes he believed they were fired from the TSBD , however given the fact the 4th and fatal head shot from the front came almost simultaniuly as the 3rd shot from the TSBD, like most people on the day they also thought the same same thing.

It changes nothing in relation to his claim of being struck by a separate bullet.


Connally stated he was struck by the ''second'' bullet , James Tague claimed his injury was cause by the ''second'' shot

How then did the bullet that hit Connally and cause all of his injuries , travel 100 metres away, hit a concrete curve , deflect up and cause Tagues wound ?

Let the ''why would they'' and the ''why wouldnt they gang'' continue to give Outlandish Narrative they hope will Convince people to look the other way , let them make up stories up all day long ,because in the end the the truth will out as the evidence shows , and that truth is there was a 4th shot fired from the front of the Presidential Limosine that day that blew the back of the Presidents head right out .

Ill leave the Drs testimony at parkland hospital who saw that first hand for another time .