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  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    Hi George,

    Just a couple of remarks and then we’ll leave it at that, agreeing to disagree. No problem indeed.

    I had been hoping that you, as an opponent to the SBT, would have had a good, clear and realistic idea of the origin and trajectory of a separate bullet striking Connally after the president was hit, but you don’t. For me, not believing the SBT should go hand in hand with such a good, clear and realistic idea.

    Instead, you return to saying that don’t believe that there was a bullet hole at the base of the neck, because the face sheet and death certificate say that it wasn’t and holes in the president’s shirt and jacket possibly suggest otherwise. That’s fine, of course. I, on the other hand, stick to the autopsy report of 6 December 1963, for now, which suggests that the bullet hole in his body was at the level of T1, as it did not penetrate the right lung, but had passed just over it. A bullet at T3 would have gone through it.

    All the best,
    Frank
    Hi Frank,

    Just a couple of points. I guess you would have seen this report:

    FBI agents James F. Sibert and Francis X. O'Neill attended the autopsy of John Kennedy and submitted a report, part of which follows:

    "During the latter stages of the autopsy, Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle of the spinal column.

    This opening was probed by Dr. Humes with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger".


    Humes reported to Hoover that the projectile found on the stretcher was from this wound and had fallen out during the heart massage, and Hoover reported this to LBJ.

    If the end of the wound could be felt with the finger, the bullet did not exit the body, and may have fallen out as suggested by Humes. I bear in mind that both LBJ and Hoover gave instructions that all evidence not pointing to Oswald as the lone shooter firing only three shots was to be suppressed. The testing of how fast the rifle could be cycled was irrelevant as the critical factor was the number of witnesses claiming that the second and third shots were close to simultaneous, and therefore could not have been fired by the same bolt action rifle.

    Best regards, George
    The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. - John F Kennedy

    Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

      This opening was probed by Dr. Humes with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees.
      Surely he just made a mistake in his estimation? Where could an angle like that be achieved from where JFK was first hit? Oswald is in the tallest building and at his location the angle was 17 degrees to JFK (taking into account 3 d for the slope of the road). Surely the wound just closed up further into the body?

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      Comment


      • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post
        I refer to witnesses' descriptions of Tippit's killer given in # 1005.

        One witness said he was short and stocky with bushy hair, another that he had curly hair and a ruddy complexion, another that he had black wavy hair with a white jacket, another that he had dark hair with a sport coat, another that he was aged no more than 20 years, another that he was wearing a darkish-brown jacket, and another that he was aged about 30.

        That makes seven witnesses who gave descriptions of the murderer which cannot be descriptions of Oswald.

        At about the time of the Tippit shooting, he was buying popcorn in a movie theater, according to a member of the theater's staff.

        Oswald did not murder Tippit.
        He clearly did.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

          Surely he just made a mistake in his estimation? Where could an angle like that be achieved from where JFK was first hit? Oswald is in the tallest building and at his location the angle was 17 degrees to JFK (taking into account 3 d for the slope of the road). Surely the wound just closed up further into the body?

          Click image for larger version Name:	1200px-DealeyPlazaAbove.jpg Views:	0 Size:	175.0 KB ID:	806287
          (Cpyright) Nehrams2020. This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license). You are free:
          • to share – to copy, distribute and transmit the work
          • to remix – to adapt the work
          Under the following conditions:
          • attribution – You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.
          • share alike – If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same or compatible
          ​​

          This is the problem Wulf. People aren’t allowed to make errors. Humes stuck a finger into the wound no more that a couple of inches. How could he be expected to have made an accurate assessment. He shouldn’t have tried. It’s fuelled the conspiracists as all mistakes do.
          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post


            This is the problem Wulf. People aren’t allowed to make errors. Humes stuck a finger into the wound no more that a couple of inches. How could he be expected to have made an accurate assessment. He shouldn’t have tried. It’s fuelled the conspiracists as all mistakes do.
            Nuts isn't it. Although I said I'd had enough of this thread (hence my return to trying to implicate Bury for every ripper letter ever written) I feel obliged to highlight what are ridiculous points.

            Comment



            • Caz: There's no getting away from the fact that Oswald alone was in charge of where Oswald would be, and what he would be doing, at any particular moment on the day of the motorcade. If the route had been changed, for example, he would either have had to change with it and taken his chances, or postpone his plans for another time and place.


              PI: I suggest that the conspirators left nothing to chance.


              Caz: That makes no sense. There was no remote control they could use on Oswald to make him do their bidding. They had no option but to leave it all to chance that he would set himself up as a patsy without even knowing it.

              Caz: He took a package into the TSBD that day, which he had previously led two people to assume contained curtain rods, and he would have been highly motivated to make sure he was not observed or obstructed from making his move when the time came.


              PI: Please tell us when the time came!


              Caz: When the time came to open fire or miss the chance to hit JFK. Oswald had to be alone at that point, either as gunman or patsy, and it all had to be synchronised with his movements. Only if he was acting alone could he have made sure he wasn't in the loo, or surrounded by fellow workers, when the chance came to shoot the President. Your mythical gunman/men would have had to fire at the crucial moment with no clue if Oswald was alone and unobserved at the time. If just one other person was with him or able to see him when the shots rang out it would have been all too bleedin' obvious that he hadn't fired any of them.

              Caz: Quite obviously he wouldn't have gone ahead with witnesses present, but by the same token there would only have been a very small window for anyone else to have shot JFK when the motorcade passed the TSBD...


              PI: You're assuming shots really were fired from the sixth floor of the TSBD.


              Caz: Not at all. It might have helped, though, for your mythical shooter(s) to have been as close as possible to where their patsy was, to keep an eye on him and make sure there were no witnesses there who could vouch for his innocence.


              PI: The Warren Commission's treatment of evidence both about Jack Ruby's presence at the hospital and Oswald's at the time of Tippit's shooting suggests that where Oswald actually was at the time of the assassination would not have been decisive.


              Caz: It would have been pretty decisive if anyone had been sitting with Oswald over their packed lunches when they heard the shots ring out. How did your mythical conspirators leave 'nothing to chance' and arrange for Oswald to be out of sight of anyone else in the building during those vital seconds? Clue: The laws of physics make this an impossibility.


              PI: Is it just a coincidence that Ruby too alleged that others had put him in the position he was in?


              Caz: I suspect he was talking about after his arrest for the murder of JFK's assassin, when people questioned his motives and suspected that he had been 'under orders' to eliminate Oswald so he could never stand trial. That was the 'position' he found himself in, and taking a lie detector test would have been a way of showing the world that he had acted alone and spontaneously, for what he considered to be noble reasons. It would have been the equivalent of a witness to John Lennon's murder being so overwhelmed with grief that he killed Mark Chapman on the spot.


              PI: What is stupid about believing that a man who had defected to the USSR and had US intelligence connections would make a good candidate to be set up with a job on the Presidential motorcade route and then accused of having murdered the President during his lunch hour?


              Caz: Even if you seriously believe that a man like Oswald would have made a 'good candidate', he was not 'set up' by anyone with the job he took on 16th October at the TSBD. That was his own choice, and he comes across as his own man, and not one to be messed with or controlled, with or without his knowledge. It would be like trying to influence the decisions and movements of my cat. If he is alone in the garden five weeks from now, with a dead mouse on the lawn, you will no doubt smell a rat, and a carefully planned conspiracy to set up both creatures, leaving nothing to chance.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              Last edited by caz; 03-17-2023, 11:03 AM.
              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                Oswald wasn’t setting up an intricate conspiracy. He found out that Kennedy was coming which would have left him 3 or 4 days to get the rifle to the TSBD. And he did that by…….FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER…..changing his plans by going to the Paine’s on the Thursday instead of the Friday.

                100% proven guilty.
                I think that hits the nail on the head, Herlock.

                Oswald wasn't setting up an intricate conspiracy. He was in total control of his own movements. When he learned that the President was coming to town, it was simply too good an opportunity for him to miss, so he took it. Had their worlds not collided on the day, in a way that allowed Oswald to take aim and fire, it wouldn't have happened that day, but he might still have made it happen another day. That's the point. He made it happen; nobody else could have made it happen to him, with any hope of success.

                Forget the bullets for a moment - arranging for both those worlds to collide on 22nd November, without the knowledge of either party, and then arranging for the patsy to be accused of having shot the President, would surely have defied the laws of physics. It would have taken superhuman powers on behalf of the conspirators.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                  ‘He took a package into the TSBD that day, which he had previously led two people to assume contained curtain rods, and he would have been highly motivated to make sure he was not observed or obstructed from making his move when the time came.’

                  Please tell us when the time came!

                  Indeed. The usual claim is some time after 11.55 when Oswald was last seen on the 6th floor. But there are a couple of problems with this. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald on either the 2nd or 1st floor at 12.15. And crucially our two witnesses Junior Jarman and Harold Norman stated they came in the back door of the TSBD, and based on their explanation of when and why they did this, the time can be narrowed down to 12.23. They did not notice Oswald but he stated (according to Fritz’s notes) that he saw them pass by the domino room on the 1st floor.

                  Now Oswald identified them both: he did not guess at one of them or put their colleague Bonnie Ray Williams (who they later joined on the 5th floor) in their company. He identified Jarman by name and gave an accurate description of Norman whose name he presumably did not know. The WC dealt with this problem by introducing a red herring: they asked whether they had lunch with Oswald (no record of Oswald claiming this) and they answered honestly that they had not.

                  Oswald on the 1st floor (we call it ground floor in the UK) gives him about 7 minutes to carry out the assassination. Less really, since the motorcade was scheduled to pass by at 12.25. In true Colombo style he might have earlier arranged the sniper’s nest, assembled the rifle and nipped upstairs to do the deed before returning to the 2nd floor lunch room where he had his exchange with Marrion Baker.

                  So when did he arrange the sniper’s nest, and assemble his rifle? He could hardly have been doing this when Bonnie Ray Williams was eating lunch on the 6th floor from around noon till 12.20. So if he did his preparatory work earlier why did no one notice? Neither the floor laying crew nor fellow order fillers? I have heard it claimed that Oswald did next to no work that morning and that his orders had not been filled. A clipboard purporting to show this turned up some days after the 6th floor had been, we assume, meticulously searched. Hanging around not doing your work for three hours was never an option in any factory or transport company I ever worked in since there was always some manager keeping an eye on things. Oswald was described as a good worker by his manager before the WC so any slacking on his part would surely have been noticed.
                  How about cutting out the extraneous detail and finally addressing the elephant in the room, cobalt?

                  The only thing that matters is whether Oswald was in view of anyone in the building at the moment when the shots were heard.

                  If Oswald was nowhere to be seen at that point, he had to be the one who fired those shots, or the unluckiest 'patsy' the world has ever known.

                  Or did the conspirators lock him in the broom cupboard for the duration?

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  Last edited by caz; 03-17-2023, 12:00 PM.
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • There's nothing superfluous about a suspect providing good evidence he was on the ground floor at 12.23. It ties in with an earlier witness seeing him as well. For the case against Oswald to stick it is necessary to put him on the 6th floor with a rifle at 12.30. In fact Oswald with a rifle anywhere in the building at any time that day would have been good enough. As Curry acknowledged this was never done. That is the elephant in the room.

                    The closest they managed was the Brennan ID which has been well aired over the years.

                    As you know well from the A6 Case there is no requirement for a suspect to produce an alibi. If Oswald was not seen anywhere at 12.30 then it does not automatically follow he was shooting the president on the 6th floor.

                    Comment


                    • Before Oswald’s execution inside DPD the FBI was becoming concerned by the ‘trial by media’ taking place and Jesse Curry took this on board. Not however Henry Wade the DA, the man who chillingly claimed he had sent men to the electric chair on less evidence than had been gathered against Oswald. Naturally enough he was calling for the death penalty for Oswald. Wade’s evidence as announced to the public included some of the following.

                      That the rifle found was a Mauser. Wade was not the only person who apparently misidentified the weapon- at least four policemen made the same error which later changed nationality and calibre. He knew of ‘several witnesses’ who had seen Oswald at the 6th floor window although it seems there was only one, Mr. Brennan. Wade claimed that Marrion Baker was on the point of arresting Oswald inside the TSBD until Roy Truly intervened. Baker never claimed this since he could hardly arrest a man for drinking a bottle of cola on the 2nd floor. The story that Oswald boarded a bus and laughed at the assassination of the president was also part of Wade’s case, though that turned out to have been a case of mistaken identity on a different bus. Wade named the taxi driver who had taken Oswald to his boarding house (not close to it) as Darryl Click, a highly unlikely name later explained to be a stenographer mishearing Wade say ‘Oak Cliff.’ A map found in Oswald’s rooming house was also damning evidence since it marked the TSBD and had lines drawn from that building. On closer inspection it seemed this was simply a map Oswald had used to locate possible job opportunities.

                      Obviously most of these wild claims were quietly dropped, but for a DA Wade was not man much troubled by checking facts. He even managed to get the Fair Play for Cuba name wrong but Jack Ruby, clearly on first name terms, put him right.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        There’s a video on here…




                        It shows Kennedy’s visit to San Diego on 6th June 1963. It’s shows Airforce One at Lindbergh Field and the President’s motorcade going through the street of San Diego.

                        Notice anything?

                        Kennedy is in the very same limousine that he was in when he was killed. The same basic configuration of cars and motorcycles, not a single Secret Service agent riding the bumper and no military aid sitting in the front between the two Secret Service men (as is often mentioned as an issue by CT’s)

                        So the security in San Diego was exactly the same as in Dallas - perhaps the conspirators didn’t know that San Diego didn’t have a Grassy Knoll?


                        Another conspiracy theorist fallacy disposed of.
                        Hi Herlock,

                        In a recent documentary, it was said that JFK himself insisted on giving the waiting crowds in Dallas an unrestricted view of himself and Jackie, who at the time was on a par with the popularity that Princess Diana would one day enjoy, and the interest in seeing Jackie and what outfit she was wearing was off the scale. JFK himself made a tongue-in-cheek comment similar to one made in the 1980s by Prince Charles, suggesting that the crowds were there more to see his wife.

                        JFK felt it would be disrespectful to all the people who had come to see the couple, to hide away inside a car with no open top, surrounded by his security people, as if they were in fear of the local population.

                        He made himself a target for Oswald by making himself accessible to everyone else.

                        Perhaps JFK was in on the conspiracy too, and was tired of living with a woman who stole the limelight.

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                          What a ludicrous bullshittt post caz , your not worth the effort to explain any further , you were wrong and you know it.

                          You obviously don't live in NSW ,you don't know what was told my our media source and what actually was the case regarding covid at the time ,

                          So please just zip your mouth on the topic..
                          I know what you posted, FISHY, and nobody, but nobody, popped in at the time to support what you were trying to imply with your covid death figures. Others did pop in, however, to support and share my growing dismay at your appalling and irresponsible misuse of statistics.

                          You'd have been better off zipping your own mouth at the time, but you just kept digging a deeper, dirtier hole for yourself.

                          Hopefully, nobody would have been stupid enough to take your arguments seriously, and leave everything to chance instead of getting all their jabs.



                          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            Curry was a moron.

                            Oswald’s gun
                            Oswald’s prints.
                            Fibres from Oswald’s shirt.
                            Oswald was the only person on the 6th floor.
                            He was the only person to flee these scene.
                            He lied about the curtain rods.
                            He picked up a revolver.
                            He got dropped 300 yards from his rooming house.
                            He was photographed holding the rifle.
                            He was seen in the 6th floor window.
                            His prints were on the boxes.
                            He did no work that morning.
                            He changed his plans for the first time ever.
                            He shot Tippit.
                            He attacked and pulled a gun on MacDonald.


                            Yeah…..no evidence. The London Trial found him guilty exactly because there was no evidence against him.


                            He wasn't seen by anyone when the shots were heard.

                            The conspirators must have draped him in a cloak of invisibility because, as we have been assured, they 'left nothing to chance'.

                            Love,

                            Caz
                            X
                            "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                              There was no defence for Oswald since the FBI took the role of the prosecution. There are two sides to every story and Oswald's has been told on the basis of fragments (such as Fritz's notes) by many people since. He was never given a fair hearing from the moment Jack Ruby (Mafia Goodfellas level of an organisation that the FBI did not recognise as existing) executed him while Oswald was handcuffed in DPD.

                              To damn Oswald you need to hear his side of the story. That was never told.
                              Hi cobalt,

                              I hope you are not letting your feelings about Hanratty influence you on this one. We both see flaws in his original trial, but you believe he was just a petty criminal who was set up as a 'patsy' and wrongfully executed by the state, while I believe he was a scumbag rapist and murderer, who lied about his alibi because the truth was presumably damning, but I have always been vehemently against the death penalty.

                              The difference with Oswald is that his was no state execution, whether he was also set up as a 'patsy', or was involved in a conspiracy, or acted alone. He was murdered on camera by Jack Ruby, who had his own reasons for killing the man being held for JFK's murder, and knew he would have to face the consequences. There was no denying what Ruby did.

                              While I agree that Oswald never got a fair trial, that was the fault of his killer, not the state. It was Ruby who wilfully deprived Oswald of the chance to get his day in court. Nobody forced Ruby's hand.

                              Hanratty had his chance in court to be defended but he blew it. Two appeals failed and he remains officially convicted.

                              Oswald never had that chance, and they are both long dead, so we are left in each case to reassess for ourselves the evidence for and against their guilt, and reach our individual verdicts on the balance of probability and if there can be any reasonable doubt.

                              That's all we can do. It's a tad too late to invoke the 'innocent until proven guilty' rule and expect everyone to follow it and play along nicely.

                              IMHO of course.

                              Love,

                              Caz
                              X
                              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                                Not when she talks nonsense I wont ,which is what she did bringing up the covid debate again , im sick to death of this constant attack from posters who think there better and smarter that everyone else . They shouldToddle off to Twitter if thats all they can do .
                                Why don't you report me to Admin for attacking your posts on the subject of more covid deaths in NSW among the vaccinated than among the unvaccinated?

                                You'll be sure to get a warm reception, FISHY.

                                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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