JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Wickerman]

When you add this to the fact that it was Oswald gun, with Oswalds prints (one of which was in an area where only a person who had assembled the gun could have accessed.)...

Have you read of this document said to have been signed by Hoover, which noted that no usable fingerprints were found on the rifle?

Some time later (days?), there was a contrary report that a print was found on the rifle.
Statements have been found from witnesses dated between these two events that claim some men came into the mortuary carrying a rifle, which they brought up to the body of Oswald.

The suggestion was that one unidentified officer pressed the dead hand of Oswald against the gun.
True or false? - again, it's hard to say.

Regardless if the subsequent claims are accurate, the fact this document exists signed by J Edgar Hoover that no prints were on the rifle is significant by itself.
I haven't seen it, but I have not seen too many books published after 2000 either.

[Abby Normal]

I think that I can recall reading somewhere that Joe Kennedy was close to Joachim Von Ribbentrop in some way? Maybe I dreamt it

Hey hs
Never heard this one. Please explain.

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the info Jon

I’d assume that it would have been the norm to keep a list of the phone calls made by Oswald? Wouldn’t the CIA have been running a huge risk of someone looking into who Oswald had called and finding this guy and his links?

In this case the call was never completed. The story goes that all calls out of the prison must be collect if the prisoner has no cash on him to pay for the call.
Intelligence operatives were present in the office when Oswald made his call, they instructed the exchange operator to not complete the call, to say to Oswald that no-one picked up the phone.
That was the end of it.
So the only official record of this attempted call was that note made by Treon.

The theory goes that no-one investigated this at the time because the CIA believed there was no record of a call. Treon kept the note as a momento and took it home with her. It only surfaced several years later.

Alan Dulles had been the Director of the CIA, but fired by Kennedy. Dulles was involved in the Warren Commission to advise how to question witnesses.
It is believed he steered the inquiry away from any potential CIA involvement in this assassination.
True or false? - who knows.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That version seems to be worded in such a way as to avoid Treon admitting she listened in on the phone call, which is how she was able to make those notes. We don't know which version is true, but as you say, why not just keep the original?
That question is mute if Treon actually did listen in, they were not supposed to do that, which may be something she was reluctant to admit.




It's known in the espionage world as employing a 'cut-out', the CIA keep their 'asset' at arms length. This was all explained by an ex-CIA operative who said he knew exactly what was going on here.
The CIA, in very sensitive cases, do not create direct contact with an 'asset'.
They have a 'cut-out' who makes contact in their place, someone who has a proven trusted background, yet is not presently involved with intelligence operations.
This man Hurt fits the requirement.
The belief is that Oswald was given this 'cut-outs' number (Hurt) to call in an emergency, at which time Hurt then contacts the CIA operative to pass on the message.
Apparently, it is standard form, according to the CIA source who wrote all about this type of clandestine work.

Thanks for the info Jon

I’d assume that it would have been the norm to keep a list of the phone calls made by Oswald? Wouldn’t the CIA have been running a huge risk of someone looking into who Oswald had called and finding this guy and his links?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s not a myth. My great uncle knew joe sr. Not only was he a major bootlegger during the prohibition, but his shady investment practices would have landed him in jail today. He was also a notorious womanizer and adulterer, encouraging to his sons to do the same but when his daughter Rosemary became an embarrassment to him, mainly because of her free spirited ways, he had her committed to a mental institution, gave her a lobotomy and never visited her.
My uncle also told me during ww2 he actually used to talk how much he admired hitler, and that he thought fascism was the wave of the future.

What a piece of work that dude was.

My uncle always used to say that the tragedies that befell the family were because joe sr. Made a deal with the devil.

I think that I can recall reading somewhere that Joe Kennedy was close to Joachim Von Ribbentrop in some way? Maybe I dreamt it

[Abby Normal]

Joe Snr confided in your uncle Joe's own illegal bootlegging activities? Sorry, I have my doubts your great uncle knew as much about Joe Kennedy as you think. Joe Kennedy's name is glaringly missing from any Law Enforcement files on illegal prohibition activities. Either Kennedy was so good at bootlegging that Law Enforcement missed his activities entirely, or Kennedy's bootlegging is a later myth become fact.

The rest of your post against Joe Kennedy has no bearing on whether Kennedy was a bootlegger or not. I did not claim Joe was a nice man. I simply stated Joe's bootlegging activities either didnt exist or have been massively exaggerated. I cannot completely dismiss the possibility that Kennedy fooled Law Enforcement, but there is a contradiction in Kennedy's name not appearing in prohibition era Law Enforcement files and numerous later accounts that claim he was massively involved and everyone seemed to know of it at the time; including it seems your great uncle. The contemporary bureaucracies we hope would record any suspicions(not even prosecutions just suspicions and rumours) about Kennedy's bootlegging are entirely missing his name.

I don’t give a rats ass what you think. Im just saying what my uncle told me about him. He knew him personally, and he didn’t have confide snit. Everyone knew what the hell he was doing.

But you can just go on believing it was a myth, and stop responding to my posts then.

[jason_c]

It’s not a myth. My great uncle knew joe sr. Not only was he a major bootlegger during the prohibition, but his shady investment practices would have landed him in jail today. He was also a notorious womanizer and adulterer, encouraging to his sons to do the same but when his daughter Rosemary became an embarrassment to him, mainly because of her free spirited ways, he had her committed to a mental institution, gave her a lobotomy and never visited her.
My uncle also told me during ww2 he actually used to talk how much he admired hitler, and that he thought fascism was the wave of the future.

What a piece of work that dude was.

My uncle always used to say that the tragedies that befell the family were because joe sr. Made a deal with the devil.

Joe Snr confided in your uncle Joe's own illegal bootlegging activities? Sorry, I have my doubts your great uncle knew as much about Joe Kennedy as you think. Joe Kennedy's name is glaringly missing from any Law Enforcement files on illegal prohibition activities. Either Kennedy was so good at bootlegging that Law Enforcement missed his activities entirely, or Kennedy's bootlegging is a later myth become fact.

The rest of your post against Joe Kennedy has no bearing on whether Kennedy was a bootlegger or not. I did not claim Joe was a nice man. I simply stated Joe's bootlegging activities either didnt exist or have been massively exaggerated. I cannot completely dismiss the possibility that Kennedy fooled Law Enforcement, but there is a contradiction in Kennedy's name not appearing in prohibition era Law Enforcement files and numerous later accounts that claim he was massively involved and everyone seemed to know of it at the time; including it seems your great uncle. The contemporary bureaucracies we hope would record any suspicions(not even prosecutions just suspicions and rumours) about Kennedy's bootlegging are entirely missing his name.

[Wickerman]

Afterward, Swinney tore the sheet from her note pad and threw it into the trash. She left, her shift having ended.

Treon retrieved the wadded piece of paper from the trash and copied the information onto a standard long-distance telephone call slip to save as a souvenir. The slip reveals that Oswald had given Treon the name "John Hurt of Raleigh, N.C."

To be completely honest Jon this sounds more than a bit suspicious to me. Why, if he wanted a souvenir, didn’t he keep the original? After all, it was only screwed up.

That version seems to be worded in such a way as to avoid Treon admitting she listened in on the phone call, which is how she was able to make those notes. We don't know which version is true, but as you say, why not just keep the original?
That question is mute if Treon actually did listen in, they were not supposed to do that, which may be something she was reluctant to admit.

I can’t see but did anyone question Sweeney the phone operator? All the info seems to come from Treon. Also this guy Hurt seemed genuinely shocked that Oswald had apparently tried to contact him so he obviously didn’t know him. So why would Oswald try and contact someone who was in counter-intelligence during the war? Someone he’d never met or had any contact with before?

It's known in the espionage world as employing a 'cut-out', the CIA keep their 'asset' at arms length. This was all explained by an ex-CIA operative who said he knew exactly what was going on here.
The CIA, in very sensitive cases, do not create direct contact with an 'asset'.
They have a 'cut-out' who makes contact in their place, someone who has a proven trusted background, yet is not presently involved with intelligence operations.
This man Hurt fits the requirement.
The belief is that Oswald was given this 'cut-outs' number (Hurt) to call in an emergency, at which time Hurt then contacts the CIA operative to pass on the message.
Apparently, it is standard form, according to the CIA source who wrote all about this type of clandestine work.

[Abby Normal]

I'll try to find a link but this seems to be a popular myth. It has been repeated so many times that it's become fact. Joseph Kennedy was a lot of things, but he doesn't appear to have made money from alcohol during prohibition. I think the myth began because Kennedy Snr made a lot of money from importing alcohol/scotch immediately after prohibition. I remember that the deal somehow involved FDR's son obtaining a license with Joe to import alcohol(and I believe Churchill may have been involved somehow in the UK end).

It’s not a myth. My great uncle knew joe sr. Not only was he a major bootlegger during the prohibition, but his shady investment practices would have landed him in jail today. He was also a notorious womanizer and adulterer, encouraging to his sons to do the same but when his daughter Rosemary became an embarrassment to him, mainly because of her free spirited ways, he had her committed to a mental institution, gave her a lobotomy and never visited her.
My uncle also told me during ww2 he actually used to talk how much he admired hitler, and that he thought fascism was the wave of the future.

What a piece of work that dude was.

My uncle always used to say that the tragedies that befell the family were because joe sr. Made a deal with the devil.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Because we cannot answer those questions does not mean that answers did not exist.

You must have heard about Oswald's attempt call to Raleigh N.C., on the evening of the 23rd?
It wasn't to a family friend, or to a lawyer, or to a Mobster, but it happened and the Warren Commission did not investigate it.
Like I queried before, is the evidence we have all that exists, or is it all we are supposed to see?

From the latest investigations it appears the number was listed to a man who had connections to US intelligence.

Back in the 60-70's it became known that the CIA had intelligence operations worldwide. They had to find their own funding because their operations were far in excess of their mandate.
One of the reasons the Vietnam war went on so long was because the CIA were running drugs out of Vietnam to fund their operations around the world.
One day we might actually find out what they were involved in.

Afterward, Swinney tore the sheet from her note pad and threw it into the trash. She left, her shift having ended.

Treon retrieved the wadded piece of paper from the trash and copied the information onto a standard long-distance telephone call slip to save as a souvenir. The slip reveals that Oswald had given Treon the name "John Hurt of Raleigh, N.C."

To be completely honest Jon this sounds more than a bit suspicious to me. Why, if he wanted a souvenir, didn’t he keep the original? After all, it was only screwed up. I can’t see but did anyone question Sweeney the phone operator? All the info seems to come from Treon. Also this guy Hurt seemed genuinely shocked that Oswald had apparently tried to contact him so he obviously didn’t know him. So why would Oswald try and contact someone who was in counter-intelligence during the war? Someone he’d never met or had any contact with before?
I can’t be certain but Oswald contacted the switchboard for a call so how would he have known the number or address of someone he apparently had never contacted before? Or, if they found the number for him, the name and address. Also it was area code 919 which was Treon’s home town. Could she have known Hurt, known that he was ex-military, and so thought of a way of creating a ‘mystery?’
I don’t know enough to say that there’s definately nothing in this Jon but it seems a bit questionable to me.

[Robert]

Jason, here's one account :

http://time.com/3529756/kennedy-chur...vestment-deal/

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oswald said he was a “patsy”.

I know Harry, the clip where he said is used a lot, including in the movie JFK. Strangely though, conspiracy theorists never like showing the rest of the clip where he says, and I’m not quoting exactly here, ‘I’ve only been arrested because I lived in the Soviet Union.’
So what he actually meant was that they were victimizing him because he’d defected. Not that he was set up by someone or some group.

[jason_c]

Yes. Before he got into politics he made millions rum running during the depression prohibition to the mafia.

I'll try to find a link but this seems to be a popular myth. It has been repeated so many times that it's become fact. Joseph Kennedy was a lot of things, but he doesn't appear to have made money from alcohol during prohibition. I think the myth began because Kennedy Snr made a lot of money from importing alcohol/scotch immediately after prohibition. I remember that the deal somehow involved FDR's son obtaining a license with Joe to import alcohol(and I believe Churchill may have been involved somehow in the UK end).

[Wickerman]

One of the crazier mafia theories I have heard is that joe DiMaggio had jfk killed because he was mad at the way he treated the love of his life Marilyn Monroe.

Funny you bring that up, I just stumbled across that a few hours ago. I'd never heard of it before. They were supposed to be getting back together I read (DiMaggio & Monroe).
Yeh, there's no end of wacky theories.

[Wickerman]

If Oswald was set up why didn’t he just say it. Why keep quiet?

If Oswald was part of an assassination team why was there no escape plan? Surely whoever organised such a thing would have said ‘don’t worry we’ll help you escape?’ And if they simply lied and Oswald was left to escape by buses and taxis then surely the conspirators would have known that it would have meant that Oswald’s ‘loyalty’ to them would have been over? He’d have talked.

How would they have convinced Oswald to take part?

They surely wouldn’t have left him free to talk on the off chance that he’d keep quiet until they could find an opportunity to bump him off?

Doesn’t add up for me.

Because we cannot answer those questions does not mean that answers did not exist.

You must have heard about Oswald's attempt call to Raleigh N.C., on the evening of the 23rd?
It wasn't to a family friend, or to a lawyer, or to a Mobster, but it happened and the Warren Commission did not investigate it.
Like I queried before, is the evidence we have all that exists, or is it all we are supposed to see?

From the latest investigations it appears the number was listed to a man who had connections to US intelligence.

Back in the 60-70's it became known that the CIA had intelligence operations worldwide. They had to find their own funding because their operations were far in excess of their mandate.
One of the reasons the Vietnam war went on so long was because the CIA were running drugs out of Vietnam to fund their operations around the world.
One day we might actually find out what they were involved in.