JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[C. F. Leon]

It's been reported that Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent that jumped in the rear of the presidential car to protect Jackie, had died at the age of 93.

[Pcdunn]

It's been reported that Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent that jumped in the rear of the presidential car to protect Jackie, had died at the age of 93.

That is very sad. He was a brave man who likely saved her life. He did his duty.

[FISHY1118]

There’s no need to hold your breath Fishy because there’s not a jury in the history of the world that would have dismissed Oswald’s rifle with Oswald’s prints on them after Oswald was witnessed by two people carrying a long package to work and that rifle (which was kept at Ruth Paine’s but was no longer there) was found on the floor where Oswald was working, in favour of the split second judgment of a man that had just been shot. Any jury would have taken all of 5 minutes to have come up with a guilty verdict (not to mention the fact that he’d shot Tippit - with his own gun) That’s ‘reasoning’ Fishy. You have simply latched on to one piece of evidence and sought to eliminate numerous other pieces of rock solid real evidence in its favour.

Yes but Herlock, all those that you mentioned have had counter claims and evidence summitted that contest those findings , my point being if ever there was a trial all that evidence would have been used to show doubt ,thus a jury would have to give a not guilty verdict .

[FISHY1118]

And the emboldened and underlined part is the significant one. Any shooter on the Knoll wouldn’t have known the state of the bullet after passing through Kennedy’s head. He could have had no level of confidence therefore you are stating that the plotters were relying entirely on a piece of good fortune; on the bullet breaking up into so many pieces that they wouldn’t have been able to accurately count the bullets fired.

So again we find ourselves needing to believe that a group of plotters who had the wherewithal to plant evidence, fake photographs and x-rays, to set up a corrupt autopsy followed by an equally corrupt commission and yet….they were idiots relying on luck. Can you really believe that?

The majority of the damage to the head appears to have been caused by a soft–nosed bullet, a type designed to break apart on impact, while all the non–fatal wounds were caused by metal–jacketed bullets, which were designed to remain intact. The shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD were all from the same batch, and must have contained the same type of bullet. The implication is that either the soft–nosed bullet was fired from elsewhere, or it was fired from the sixth floor by a second gunman.


But its not passing through, that the point of a soft nosed bullet its ''designed to break apart on impact''


Of course a professional hitman who probably was an expert in his craft would know this , i doubt he would have had any doubt as to what the his perticular bullet choice would have done upon impact .


Where is the fatel bullett that struck the head of jfk , if we have c399 in almost perfect condition, where is the 3rd bullet that should have gone through his head In /Out ?

While all the non–fatal wounds were caused by metal–jacketed bullets, which were designed to remain intact. The shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD were all from the same batch .

[FISHY1118]

Actually, I suppose it could be pointed out that there was a trial - albeit for US television purposes. Lawyers conducted the prosecution and defence, legal procedures were followed, everything was conducted as if it were a real trial, and although it can be argued that it wasn't a totally genuine trial, Oswald was found guity with a unanimous verdict.

'' although it can be argued that it wasn't a totally genuine trial''....... Without a real jury,, kinda makes a hugh difference one would think.

[FISHY1118]

Your quote comes verbatim from here.

Your source provides no evidence to support its claim that the JFK headshot was caused by a soft-nosed bullet. It also makes no sense. A competent Conspiracy wouldn't use metal-jacketed bullets if they had soft-nosed bullets available and they definitely wouldn't use both if they were trying to frame a lone gunman.

To prove the soure totally wrong ,all you have to do is show Evidence of the 3rd bullet shot from the TSBD was caused by a metal jacketed bullet ,just like C399.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes but Herlock, all those that you mentioned have had counter claims and evidence summitted that contest those findings , my point being if ever there was a trial all that evidence would have been used to show doubt ,thus a jury would have to give a not guilty verdict .

The weight of evidence would have been overwhelming and juries go look for facts. They wouldn’t have been taken in by all the talk of planted prints and stuff like that. It’s spy novel stuff and the jury live in the real world. By the time that the jury had said that they were ready to go back and deliver their verdict the judge wouldn’t have had time to take his wig off back in his chamber.

There was actually a mock trial (as has been pointed out recently) and they found Oswald unanimously guilty. Yes, not a real trial of course, but it was still a case of the evidence (including the evidence that you alluded to to) being placed in front of exactly the kind of people that would have formed a real jury. They had a very highly regarded defence lawyer in Spence plus a teal of experts including Cyril Wecht and witnesses who were there on the day. Bugliosi won easily because the evidence overwhelmingly pointed to a guilty Oswald.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The majority of the damage to the head appears to have been caused by a soft–nosed bullet, a type designed to break apart on impact, while all the non–fatal wounds were caused by metal–jacketed bullets, which were designed to remain intact. The shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD were all from the same batch, and must have contained the same type of bullet. The implication is that either the soft–nosed bullet was fired from elsewhere, or it was fired from the sixth floor by a second gunman.


But its not passing through, that the point of a soft nosed bullet its ''designed to break apart on impact''


Of course a professional hitman who probably was an expert in his craft would know this , i doubt he would have had any doubt as to what the his perticular bullet choice would have done upon impact .


Where is the fatel bullett that struck the head of jfk , if we have c399 in almost perfect condition, where is the 3rd bullet that should have gone through his head In /Out ?

While all the non–fatal wounds were caused by metal–jacketed bullets, which were designed to remain intact. The shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD were all from the same batch .

So our genius conspirators used two different types of bullet and just hoped that no one would notice?

Really Fishy?

[Herlock Sholmes]

'' although it can be argued that it wasn't a totally genuine trial''....... Without a real jury,, kinda makes a hugh difference one would think.

So how would a real trial jury have differed from a mock trial jury? And please don’t say something like..a mock trial jury wouldn’t have tried so hard or that they wouldn’t have been bothered. A jury is a jury. 12 citizens viewed the evidence and found Oswald unanimously guilty..as ghetto clearly was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

To prove the soure totally wrong ,all you have to do is show Evidence of the 3rd bullet shot from the TSBD was caused by a metal jacketed bullet ,just like C399.

I can prove by solid evidence that someone fired from the 6th floor (there was a gun there plus cartridges) That they were there cannot be disputed.

What evidence do you have that there was a man firing from behind that fence? And I’m talking of tangible evidence and nothing about disputed angles or bullets (magic or otherwise)

We know that the answer is that you have no evidence. The police checked the location and found not the slightest evidence that anyone had stood there. Therefore there hadn’t been a gunman there unless he could levitate.

[cobalt]

So our genius conspirators used two different types of bullet and just hoped that no one would notice?

The conspirators were not wedded to the lone gunman theory. Their aim was to assassinate the President so it would matter little to them whether there was one gunman, two or three. The more the merrier really in terms of the authorities chasing down different leads. So long as Communist sympathiser Oswald could be linked to the conspiracy it didn't matter about anybody else.

There was, if not a touch of genius, certainly a hard boiled intelligence at work. The decision to take the tight turn down Elm Street has been explained as to do with ramps preventing a right turn when approaching the triple underpass from Main Street. That does not sound to me like a problem so major it could not have been resolved and I don't know if any individual ever took direct responsibility for that decision.

In addition the President's security detail, as well as Jesse Curry, were nervous about protests from the Dallas anti-Kennedy caucus which was extremely vocal. Less than a month earlier Adlai Stevenson had been manhandled in Dallas and they feared a repeat, most likely around the Trade Mart. The security team were unhappy about this venue since it was too open so the bulk of their agents were allocated there in anticipation of Kennedy's arrival. Thus having negotiated the larger than expected and perhaps surprisingly friendly crowds, the security personnel in the motorcade could have been forgiven a moment's relaxation as they approached the thinning crowds in front of the triple underpass. From an assassin's perspective it was a very good moment to strike.

[Fiver]

I think I've covered why Norman and Jarman did not confirm Oswald being there. They had no reason to pay any attention to him so quite likely did not notice his presence. And once Oswald was in custody they had even more reason not to remember seeing him there even if they had. None of this precludes Oswald from being the shooter on the 6th floor, and it certainly does not exclude him from organising the assassination in some way. But it does seriously undermine the WC account.

Oswald claimed he was in the lunch room with Harold Norman and James Jarman when JFK was killed. That's his alibi.

Oswald never mentioned Danny Arce or Jack Dougherty being in the lunch room. That's a strange omission if Oswald really was in the lunch room. Arce, Dougherty, Jarman, and Norman all denied that Oswald was in lunch room.

At the time of the shootings, Harold Norman, James Jarman, and Bonnie Ray Williams were not in the lunch room. We have photographic evidence that they were on the 5th floor at that time.

So Oswald lied about having an alibi.

[Fiver]

The majority of the damage to the head appears to have been caused by a soft–nosed bullet, a type designed to break apart on impact, while all the non–fatal wounds were caused by metal–jacketed bullets, which were designed to remain intact.

You quoting this multiple times doesn't change anything.

Your source provides no evidence to support its claim that the JFK headshot was caused by a soft-nosed bullet. It also makes no sense. A competent Conspiracy wouldn't use metal-jacketed bullets if they had soft-nosed bullets available and they definitely wouldn't use both if they were trying to frame a lone gunman.

[Fiver]

It became clear that this bullet alone could not have caused all of Connally’s injuries:

So you're claiming that Connally was shot by multiple bullets? That makes no sense.

* Unless God was shooting at Connally, the thigh wound must have come from a bullet deflecting off of Connally's wrist.
* Unless Connally shot himself in the wrist with an invisible gun, the wrist wound came from the bullet that passed through Cannally's torso.

[LIST][*]Despite the great destruction it had apparently caused, the bullet had suffered very little damage. Its base was slightly squashed, and its copper sheath possessed several fine scratches, but the bullet was otherwise intact. It was supposed to have destroyed four inches of one of Connally’s ribs and shattered the radius bone in his wrist, one of the densest bones in the human body. To determine whether the condition of the bullet was consistent with these injuries, two sets of tests were conducted:[LIST][*]The US Army fired ten similar bullets into the wrists of human cadavers. In all ten cases, the bullets were severely damaged.2

Firing bullest directly into the wrist of cadavers was not an accurate test. 1992 tests by Failure Analysis with lower velocity, as would be expected from a bullet that had passed through Connally's chest, did not result in bullet fragmentation from striking cadaver wrists, and the test bullets were generally less deformed than CE 399.

[*]More metal had been deposited in Governor Connally’s wounds than was missing from the bullet.

This is provably false. Testing showed unfired 6.5mm Carcano bullets weighed 161.2 grains. The stretcher bullet weighed 158.6 grains, a difference of 2.6 grains. Analysis of the combined weight of all fragments in Connally's wounds come to only 1.5 grains. Also, neutron activation testing proves that the bullet fragments from Connally's wounds came from CE 399.

[Fiver]

[/LIST]The Provenance of the Bullet


It also became clear that the bullet presented to the Warren Commission had not come from Governor Connally’s stretcher.

There had been two stretchers outside the operating theatre: one had held Connally, while the other had had no connection with either Connally or Kennedy. Darrell Tomlinson, the hospital employee who discovered the bullet, was insistent that he had found it on the other stretcher.

That is wrong.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we've gone over here.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more detail here.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for sure, I really don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.
Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I think it's just like that
Mr. SPECTER. And, then, when
Mr. TOMLINSON. (interrupting). Here's the deal--I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came. back to the ground. Now, I don't know how many people went through that---I don't know how many people hit them--I don't know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.
Mr. SPECTER. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just can't be sure?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively sure I think it was A, but I'm not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. That you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator---I called that to your attention, didn't I?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; you told me that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No it really doesn't---it really doesn't.
Mr. SPECTER. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was---that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?
Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling him definitely-I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.
Mr. SPECTER. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know where---
Mr. TOMLINSON. (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.
Mr. SPECTER. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?
Mr. TOMLINSON. It could have been--I'm not sure whether it was A I took off.
Mr. SPECTER. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I'm not clear on that---whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.
Mr. SPECTER. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it was A---I'm not really sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent--that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.
Mr. SPECTER. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Now let's look at the idea that CE 399 was planted.

* Why would a Conspiracy have planted a bullet in the first place? If there were more than 3 shots, the Conspiracy would be trying to remove bullets and bullet fragments to bring it down to 3 bullets, not planting more.

* Why would a Conspiracy plant the bullet on a stretcher, where it could have been missed completely? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have dropped it inside the car?

* Why would a Conspiracy plant a lightly damaged bullet? A heavily damaged one gives more slack for the weight of bullet fragments found inside of Connally and Kennedy.

* How would a Conspiracy know where to plant the bullet? Tomlinson took Connally's stretcher down the elevator, how would the Conspiracy have known where he was taking it?

* How dd the Conspiracy get so lucky as to plant a fake bullet that would fool neutron scanning matches done by the HSC in 1976, over a decade after the shooting?