JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[cobalt]

Hi OR,

A fresh mind is always to be welcomed.

The problem with the JFK case is that what is often called ‘evidence’ is not really that at all. None of the evidence against Oswald was ever tested in cross examination with a defence lawyer to put his case. In fact there was no accurate record taken of what he said when in custody. So the case against Oswald lacks authentic evidence and cannot properly presented.

As a result we have to rely on an FBI investigation which was very thorough but had been instructed politically to close the debate down. An exhaustive search of the Warren files (as compared with original statements to the DPD) shows the FBI shaping statements to that end.

The same problem is seen in testimony secured by people like Mark Lane and Jim Garrison who, like the FBI, did excellent work, but were tailoring the evidence to fit their own agenda - in their case support of Oswald.

Rather than find common ground to argue from, the debate tends towards tribalism and it is not always easy to find some light amidst the heat. But I wish you all the best.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"He was a white man in his early 30’s ... He had on light colored clothing." - Howard Brennan

Oswald was 5'9, ... 26 years old. Brennan gave an accurate description.

(Fiver, # 2211)

Howard Brennan's description of the man did not match Oswald.

He described a man about eight years older and wearing different coloured clothing.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR1, # 2219)

Oswald was 5'9, slender build, 26 years old. Brennan gave an accurate description.

"He was a white man in his early 30’s, ... He had on light colored clothing" - Howard Brennan

(Fiver, # 2220)

Anyone can view the original statement made by Howard Brennan on the day of the assassination and see that what I wrote is correct:

Howard Brennan's description of the man did not match Oswald.

He described a man about eight years older and wearing different coloured clothing.

((PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR1, # 2229)


It was not I who brought up Brennan's description of Oswald.

It was Fiver.

He overstated Oswald's actual age by two years and claimed that Brennan estimated it correctly.

When I pointed out that Brennan overstated it by about eight years, Fiver repeated his error and Herlock entered the fray, dismissing my objection on the ground that you can't accurately estimate a person's age.

That was after the person he was defending - Fiver - had claimed that Brennan HAD accurately estimated it!

It is remarkable how often facts no longer matter when a certain poster - PI 1 - is proven right.

How about the colour or shade of Oswald's shirt?

Don't tell me you can't expect a witness to tell the difference between light and dark, either!

[Fiver]

"He was a white man in his early 30’s ... He had on light colored clothing." - Howard Brennan

Oswald was 5'9, ... 26 years old. Brennan gave an accurate description.

(Fiver, # 2211)

Howard Brennan's description of the man did not match Oswald.

He described a man about eight years older and wearing different coloured clothing.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR1, # 2219)

Oswald was 5'9, slender build, 26 years old. Brennan gave an accurate description.

"He was a white man in his early 30’s, ... He had on light colored clothing" - Howard Brennan

(Fiver, # 2220)

Anyone can view the original statement made by Howard Brennan on the day of the assassination and see that what I wrote is correct:

Howard Brennan's description of the man did not match Oswald.

He described a man about eight years older and wearing different coloured clothing.

((PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR1, # 2229)


It was not I who brought up Brennan's description of Oswald.

It was Fiver.

He overstated Oswald's actual age by two years and claimed that Brennan estimated it correctly.

When I pointed out that Brennan overstated it by about eight years, Fiver repeated his error and Herlock entered the fray, dismissing my objection on the ground that you can't accurately estimate a person's age.

That was after the person he was defending - Fiver - had claimed that Brennan HAD accurately estimated it!

It is remarkable how often facts no longer matter when a certain poster - PI 1 - is proven right.

How about the colour or shade of Oswald's shirt?

Don't tell me you can't expect a witness to tell the difference between light and dark, either!

I did get Oswald's age wrong, but you repeatedly selectively quote me, skipping those parts show Brennan provided an accurate description of Oswald.


Oswald was 5'9, slender build, 24 years old.

"He was a white man in his early 30’s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weight about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definitely not a suit." - Howard Brennan

The police report given based in Brennan's description was "White male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, 165 pounds."

Officer Tippett asked the dispatcher to repeat that description just before he stopped Oswald.

[Fiver]

It was Fiver.

He overstated Oswald's actual age by two years and claimed that Brennan estimated it correctly.

I never said that Brennan estimated Oswald's age correctly.

Please stop making false claims about what I said.

[Fiver]

[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Times New Roman]The problem with the JFK case is that what is often called ‘evidence’ is not really that at all. None of the evidence against Oswald was ever tested in cross examination with a defence lawyer to put his case. In fact there was no accurate record taken of what he said when in custody. So the case against Oswald lacks authentic evidence and cannot properly presented.

The case against Oswald has plenty of authentic evidence.
* The Caracano was Oswald's. We have his handwriting on the order form. We have photographs of Oswald with the Carcano that were taken by his wife using Oswald's camera. One photo had a note in Owald's handwriting on the back. Fibers from his shirt match those found on the rifle.
* Oswald's prints were on boxes at the sniper's nest, the paper bag, and the rifle itself.
* Fibers from the blanket that Oswald kept his Carcano in matched fibers found in the paper bag.
* Oswald's Carcano was the weapon used to kill JFK. The shell casings match the Carcano. The bullets and bullet fragments match the Carcano.

All of this forensic evidence was confirmed by police forensic experts and the FBI forensic experts.

* An eyewitness, Howard Brennan, saw a white man of Oswald's approximate weight and build firing from the snipers nest. When he saw a police lineup, Brennan said that Oswald looked like the man he saw, but could not positively identify him.
* Several other eyewitnesses saw a man in the snipers nest or a rifle extending from it, but none provided as good of a description.

* Oswald had no alibi. He claimed to have been in the domino room, but several of his coworkers testified to being in the domino room during that time and said that Oswald was not there.

Oswald's behavior was not that of an innocent man.
* When confronted by a police officer with a drawn gun on the second floor, he showed no curiousity as to why the police officer did that.
* He is the only Book Depository employee who left the building after the shooting.
* He had a taxi driver drop him several blocks from his house.
* When apprehended in the theater, Oswald tried to shoot the police with his pistol.
* In custody he lied repeatedly.

The case against Oswald in the killing of Officer Tippett is even stronger.
* Tippet asked the police dispatcher to repeat the description of JFK's killer just before he pulled over the man who killed him.
* Multiple witnesses who saw the killing of Officer Tippet or the killer fleeing the scene picked Oswald out of a police lineup.
* The discarded cartridge casings came from Oswald's pistol. They were a mix of two different brands of bullets.
* The bullets in Tippet's body came from Oswald's pistol. They were a mix of the same two brands of bullets.
* The jacket discarded by the killer was identified by Marina Oswald as belonging to her husband.
* When apprehended at the theater, Oswald tried to shoot one of the arresting officers.
* The bullets found in Oswald's pistol and his pocket were the same two brands of shells.

The case against Oswald against trying to murder General Walker is the weakest.
* Marina Oswald testified that her husband tried to kill the general.
* On the night that Walker was shot at, Oswald left his wife a note on what to do if he was "alive and taken prisoner".
* The bullet was too badly damaged to get a ballistics match, but it was determined to be the same type of bullet that killed JFK.
* Five photographs of the Walker residence were found in Oswald's effects.

As a result we have to rely on an FBI investigation which was very thorough but had been instructed politically to close the debate down. An exhaustive search of the Warren files (as compared with original statements to the DPD) shows the FBI shaping statements to that end.

The Warren Commission was not an FBI investigation. The Commission did its own interviews. Forensics evidence was checked by multiple police departments, not just the FBI. That said, the FBI certainly tried to cover their behinds on their failure to identify Oswald as a threat.

The same problem is seen in testimony secured by people like Mark Lane and Jim Garrison who, like the FBI, did excellent work, but were tailoring the evidence to fit their own agenda - in their case support of Oswald.

Jim Garrison was a loony who thought the JFK assassination was a "homosexual thrill killing". His case against Clay Shaw was so flimsy that it only took the jury 45 minutes to acquit Shaw.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi folks - I've done far less reading on this subject than many of you and so was unsure of Oswald's age. I note from wikipedia that he was only just 24 at the time of Kennedy's murder. That was a surprise as he looks a fair bit older than that to me in contemporary photos and film. In line with the highlighted part of Herlock's post, that surely is the relevant factor here rather than how old he actually was.

As something of an aside, does my comparative lack of reading help or hinder? I'm actually inclined to feel the former and would respectfully suggest the possibility of being ''unable to see the woods for the trees'' be considered.

Best regards,
OneRound

I would second that. I too didn't actually know LHO's age but after looking at the photo above I would have guessed late twenties to early 30's. That's studying a photo - a witness not taking particular notice may go even older. The slightly receding hairline makes him look older. PI only deals in absolutes though.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I never said that Brennan estimated Oswald's age correctly.

Please stop making false claims about what I said.

Brennan saw the shooter and gave his description to the police - the description matched Oswald.

(Fiver, # 2194)


According to Howard Brennan's affidavit, the alleged shooter was about eight years older than Oswald and wore different coloured clothing.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1, # 2195)


Oswald was 5'9, slender build, 26 years old. Brennan gave an accurate description.

(Fiver, # 2211)



It is quite clear that you did claim that Brennan's estimate of Oswald's age was accurate.

I did not make a false claim about that.

[cobalt]

If Oswald looked to be in his late 20s or early 30s, then his complaint about being put in a police line up with a couple of teenagers seems very justified. The ID evidence against Oswald, due to the inadequate line ups and the fact his face was broadcast on TV within hours of the alleged crime, would have been lucky to have been admitted into evidence had he made court.

[Fiver]

Brennan saw the shooter and gave his description to the police - the description matched Oswald.

(Fiver, # 2194)


According to Howard Brennan's affidavit, the alleged shooter was about eight years older than Oswald and wore different coloured clothing.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1, # 2195)


Oswald was 5'9, slender build, 26 years old. Brennan gave an accurate description.

(Fiver, # 2211)



It is quite clear that you did claim that Brennan's estimate of Oswald's age was accurate.

I did not make a false claim about that.

I never claimed that that Brennan's estimate of Oswald's age was accurate. I said that Brenna's description was accurate.

Please stop making false statements about what I said.

I did get Oswald's age wrong, but you repeatedly selectively quote me, skipping those parts show Brennan provided an accurate description of Oswald.

Oswald was 5'9, slender build, 24 years old.

"He was a white man in his early 30’s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weight about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definitely not a suit." - Howard Brennan

The police report given based in Brennan's description was "White male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, 165 pounds."

Officer Tippett asked the dispatcher to repeat that description just before he stopped Oswald.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Oswald had a white shirt on when arrested. Where is your issue? Please stop mentioning the age. It’s beyond silly. It’s impossible to tell an 8 year difference in someone’s age. Just forget the age.

WH16_CE_150.pdf




Are we not forgetting Oswald's shirt?

The first photograph I provide is of Oswald's shirt, showing the bullet hole.

Does it look white, as claimed by Herlock?

[Fiver]

If Oswald looked to be in his late 20s or early 30s, then his complaint about being put in a police line up with a couple of teenagers seems very justified. The ID evidence against Oswald, due to the inadequate line ups and the fact his face was broadcast on TV within hours of the alleged crime, would have been lucky to have been admitted into evidence had he made court.

1 in the lineup was William Perry, a police officer with the vice squad.
2 in the lineup was Oswald
3 in the lineup was Richard Clark, a police officer with the vice squad.
4 in the lineup was Don Ables, a clerk from the jail.

No teenagers there.

Helen Markham, who had not seen Oswald's face on TV, identified Oswald.
Ted Calloway, who had not seen Oswald's face on TV, identified Oswald.
Sam Guinyard, who had not seen Oswald's face on TV, identified Oswald.
Cecil Waters, who had not seen Oswald's face on TV, said Oswald looked like the man on his bus, but he could not be certain.

Later that day, they changed the lineup.

1 in the lineup was Richard Borchgardt, a prisoner at the jail.
2 in the lineup was Oswald
3 in the lineup was Ellis Brazel, a prisoner at the jail.
4 in the lineup was Don Ables, a clerk from the jail.

Barbara Davis, who had not seen Oswald's face on TV, identified Oswald.
Virginia Davis, who had not seen Oswald's face on TV, identified Oswald.
Howard Brennan had seen Oswald's face on TV and told them so. He said Oswald looked like the man he saw in the sniper's nest, but he could not be certain.

The third lineup group that Oswald appeared in was
1 in the lineup was John Horne, a prisoner at the jail. He was 17.
2 in the lineup was David Knapp, a prisoner at the jail. He was 18.
3 in the lineup was Oswald.
4 in the lineup was Daniel Lujan a prisoner at the jail. He was 26.

This is the lineup where Oswald complains about being put into line with teenagers and it appears justified for this lineup, unless Horne and Knapp appeared older than their actual ages.

William Whaley had seen Oswald's face on TV and identified Oswald.
William Scoggins who had seem Oswald's picture in the newspaper, identified Oswald.

Johnny Brewer picked Oswald out of the crowd at the movie theater.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Howard Brennan had seen Oswald's face on TV and told them so. He said Oswald looked like the man he saw in the sniper's nest, but he could not be certain.

He said the man was wearing light-coloured clothing.

Oswald was not.

[Aethelwulf]

WH16_CE_150.pdf




Are we not forgetting Oswald's shirt?

The first photograph I provide is of Oswald's shirt, showing the bullet hole.

Does it look white, as claimed by Herlock?

How light is light though? Look at the men next to Oswald in that photo. They are undeniably wearing dark clothes (black by the look of it). Oswald has on a white t-shirt by the look of it and a lighter shirt (is there a coloured version of this anywhere?). His shirt is many shades 'lighter' than those dark clothes.

Your problem is that you take everything single thing too literally. It's ridiculous.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

How light is light though? Look at the men next to Oswald in that photo. They are undeniably wearing dark clothes (black by the look of it). Oswald has on a white t-shirt by the look of it and a lighter shirt (is there a coloured version of this anywhere?). His shirt is many shades 'lighter' than those dark clothes.

Your problem is that you take everything single thing too literally. It's ridiculous.

Would you call this light-coloured?

[Aethelwulf]

Would you call this light-coloured?

Depends on each witness and how they class light and dark in clothing terms. As I said, compared to the men behind in what look likes black, then yes it is a lot lighter. The shirt has light brown in it. Worn with a white t-shirt below I can see why it would be termed light. Light brown. With the white t-shirt in daylight the overall appearance is well within the scope of light. It's not black or navy.