Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Yes, this is possible, although Dr Phillips, of course, suggested a different scenario.

Since the scarf remained taut it seems logical that the pressure was constant through the cut, which also restricted arterial spray. If he used the scarf to lower her after slitting her throat, then the slice while falling seems plausible,...considering that no spray was detected.

[Wickerman]

What I want to say is:

Clothes, not wet with rain and no grapes in her stomach and no Packer in the London Hospital = Packer is a liar... I do not know... even though you are probably right... but Game over for Packer? Definitively?

The grapes- ok, I can very easily understand your conclusion!

The post-mortem/autopsy was conducted 38 hours after the murder. Had there been any grape 'flesh' in her stomach at the time of the murder the digestive acid's would have long since dissolved any trace.
And yes, spitting out the skins & seeds is very common, I do it myself.

Wet clothes- there was a heavy rain... but after 11.00pm? Little rain-no rain?

"Not wet with rain" is an awkward turn of phrase. Such a choice of words seems more applicable to her clothes being wet by something, but not rain.
Which I am sure was not actually the case.

The phrase reads to me like the clothes were not ringing wet or soaked as we might say, but only damp. Quite likely due to her clothes being wet earlier in the night, but had since absorbed the wet.
It certainly does not mean they were dry, as has been interpreted by Tom.

[Wickerman]

There are I think two very obvious explanations and a third less obvious to this.

2. she was about to take part in a sex act, and turned to prepare for this.

Yes, precisely, a typical posture for the streetwalker. Only she was strangled or choked from behind instead, then the killer lowered her to the ground on her left side.
The position of her body is quite consistent with this.

[drstrange169]

>>We don`t know which way her feet were pointing, John, or do we ? Considering her position I would say her feet would be pointing towards the wall or thereabouts.<<

Mrs Stride was in a fetal position, toes almost touching the wall, soles and heels facing the entrance.

"The deceased was lying on her left side obliquely across the passage, her face looking towards the right wall. Her legs were drawn up, her feet close against the wall of the right side of the passage."

Dr Blackwell

[S.Brett]

Good Morning, Jon!

The post-mortem/autopsy was conducted 38 hours after the murder. Had there been any grape 'flesh' in her stomach at the time of the murder the digestive acid's would have long since dissolved any trace.
And yes, spitting out the skins & seeds is very common, I do it myself.

To be honest I was not aware of that:

At three o'clock p.m. on Monday at St. George's Mortuary, Dr. Blackwell and I made a post mortem examination.

But I have no idea about "digestion postmortem".

"Not wet with rain" is an awkward turn of phrase. Such a choice of words seems more applicable to her clothes being wet by something, but not rain.
Which I am sure was not actually the case.

The phrase reads to me like the clothes were not ringing wet or soaked as we might say, but only damp. Quite likely due to her clothes being wet earlier in the night, but had since absorbed the wet.
It certainly does not mean they were dry, as has been interpreted by Tom.

"Not wet with rain" may indicate that it was not raining around the time Stride was found dead (but before and after) and that her clothes were "wet" on her back. It seems that there was a heavy rain during the night and the ground in Dutfield´s Yard could have been moist and I think it is possible that the clothes on her back were "wet" caused by "rainwater on the ground" but not caused by "fresh rain". It is hard to believe that her clothes were completely dry.

Karsten.

[John G]

Yes, precisely, a typical posture for the streetwalker. Only she was strangled or choked from behind instead, then the killer lowered her to the ground on her left side.
The position of her body is quite consistent with this.

This scenario is, of course, inconsistent with a common domestic incident, and suggests that her killer had planned to commit murder. Moreover, as I noted earlier, I think it unlikely that Stride would have entered Dutfield's Yard voluntarily with a man who had just assaulted her, let alone turned her back on him.

[lynn cates]

journey to the east

Hello John. Thanks.

Well, not impossible, but add in the cachous and final position. I doubt she were standing facing north. East seems MUCH more likely.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

forced

Hello Abby.

"She could have fallen, been forced down, expired and/or landed in any position.'

No. Mud and wetness was on left side. Forced down? No, looked like she had been lain gently down. And don't forget the cachous.

"Or once down could have struggled, squirmed or moved into any position."

Not what the medicos said.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no evidence

Hello John.

"Are you suggesting she was suffocated? I suppose it's possible, but there's no evidence for this."

Absolutely correct.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

It was Morris Eagle, at the inquest, who said that her feet were to the gate.

Hi John

Yes, her feet were to the gate, but they were pointing towards the wall.
So , if Lynn and your theory is correct she was about to scale the wall.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Lack of bruising around the neck would suggest that she was not strangled, although this cannot be ruled out. Dr Biggs stated:

"Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would of course be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation/suffocation" (Marriott, 2015).

Of course, the issue of lack of bruising around the neck was an important factor in the Rose Mylett case, where the medical opinion was divided as to whether she had been strangled.

Hi John

No bruising on the Hammersmith victims, although there were scratch marks to the throat suggesting some sort of soft ligature was used....They were still alive when they entered the water...cause of death drowning

This makes me wonder if Strides scarf was pulled with enough force to make her pass out?

Yours Jeff

[John G]

Hi John

Yes, her feet were to the gate, but they were pointing towards the wall.
So , if Lynn and your theory is correct she was about to scale the wall.

Hi Jon,

Thank you for crediting me with the "theory", however, I merely considered that body position might indicate that Stride was attempting to exit the yard when attacked. However, I also suggested that she may have been spun round by her attacker, and I'm perfectly willing to consider other scenarios.

For instance, Wickerman' argument in Post 483 implies that she entered the yard willingly with her killer for purposes of sex. However, if this is the case, this is yet another example of the mounting number of factors that seriously undermines BS man's candidacy: as I noted earlier, I cannot see Stride entering the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard with a man who had just assaulted her, particularly taking into account the Ripper scare and the fact that she wasn't desperate, unlike Polly and Annie.

However, if she was pulled backwards whilst facing the wall, as Steve and Wickerman suggest, does this adequately explain the final body position? In this scenario, wouldn't it be more likely that her feet would be left facing the wall, rather than than the gate?

[John G]

Hi John

No bruising on the Hammersmith victims, although there were scratch marks to the throat suggesting some sort of soft ligature was used....They were still alive when they entered the water...cause of death drowning

This makes me wonder if Strides scarf was pulled with enough force to make her pass out?

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

But with the Hanmersmith Nude Murders there was clearly evidence of asphyxiation. For instance, Barthelemy had eight abrasions on her throat, and the six small abrasions in the right side were probably caused by the victims fingernails as she was attempting to remove the means of strangulation. Moreover, there was also swelling on the left cheekbone and bridge of the nose, indicating that she'd been struck with a fist.

In Brown's case there were a series of pigmented marks, believed to be small haemorrhage and abrasions, indicative of an asphyxial death.

O'Hara had signs of asphyxsia on the mucus membranes of the face and eyes, and on the lungs, as well as two abrasions on the left side of the neck, which could have been caused by pressure.

Fleming had abrasions on and below the chin, possibly left by the victims fingernails as she attempted to remove the means of pressure, as well as a series of linear abrasions along the front and side of the neck, possibly caused by a ligature.

However, in Stride's case there are no such indications.

[Michael W Richards]

The Inquest revealed medical opinion that Liz Strides fatal assault might have taken "2 seconds", so I dont think its neccesary to ponder whether she was choked to unconsciousness or strangled at all. The scarf evidence is all thats needed to understand what happened...grabbed the back of the scarf as Stride turns her back to face the open gate, pulls back and twists to the left at the same time, she loses balance, her upper body orients back and to the left, while holding the scarf he slips his knife under her chin, right handed likely,...then he pulls back with his knife hand running the blade across her throat, and lowers her to the ground using the scarf as a sling. That would explain the brief nature of the attack, the scarf evidence, the lack of arterial spray, the uneven nature of the throat cut itself, and why she is found "as if gently lain down".

What this also would reveal is that he cuts her throat while she is conscious, but in a choke type hold. I doubt that was the case with either Polly or Annie.

[John G]

The Inquest revealed medical opinion that Liz Strides fatal assault might have taken "2 seconds", so I dont think its neccesary to ponder whether she was choked to unconsciousness or strangled at all. The scarf evidence is all thats needed to understand what happened...grabbed the back of the scarf as Stride turns her back to face the open gate, pulls back and twists to the left at the same time, she loses balance, her upper body orients back and to the left, while holding the scarf he slips his knife under her chin, right handed likely,...then he pulls back with his knife hand running the blade across her throat, and lowers her to the ground using the scarf as a sling. That would explain the brief nature of the attack, the scarf evidence, the lack of arterial spray, the uneven nature of the throat cut itself, and why she is found "as if gently lain down".

What this also would reveal is that he cuts her throat while she is conscious, but in a choke type hold. I doubt that was the case with either Polly or Annie.

Hello Michael,

Firstly, there's no proof that any of the victims were strangled or suffocated. Secondly, in your scenario the killer presumably grabs hold of the scarf instinctively as Stride turns around, possibly intending to leave the yard. Obviously these factors weren't present in Annie's and Polly's murders, so I don't see why this would indicate a different killer.

I would also note that arterial spray is uncommon because, as pointed out by Dr Biggs, arteries, even large ones, usually go into acute spasm when cut, providing "very effective control of bleeding (at least initially.)" Marriott, 2015).