Schwartz v. Lawende

[Jon Guy]

But is there any proof that she was rendered unconscious by her killer?

When her throat was cut ?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Jon,

I should have said that her feet were facing the gate, which might indicate that she was attempting to exit the Yard: see post 327

Hi JohnG,all

I think people are making to much of her body position on the ground, and which way her feet were facing.

She could have fallen, been forced down, expired and/or landed in any position.
Or once down could have struggled,squirmed or moved into any position.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

But is there any proof that she was rendered unconscious by her killer?

'Proof' is some what difficult...

I'd observe that Stride was described as Pale, while Chapman was described as rudy.... A possible explanation for this might be that Strides blood supply was cut due to pressure on the Artery, possibly by the scarf being pulled tight, where as Chapman was apparently strangled or throttled.

Its my belief the The Hammersmith nude victims were also strangled like Stride... Possibly with a stocking? They were only unconscious, hence they drowned when thrown in the river... So its possible Stride did regain consciousness if this was the method....

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

We don`t know which way her feet were pointing, John, or do we ? Considering her position I would say her feet would be pointing towards the wall or thereabouts.

Even if her feet were pointing towards the street, it probably means that she was manhandled into whatever position suited her killer.

Hi Jon
her feet were towrd the gate/street. and I totally agree with your post.

[Michael W Richards]

Are you serious? All you've been posting these last six years or so is a rehash of my original research on Schwartz that shows he might have been associated with the Berner Street club. I don't mind anyone citing me or my ideas and agreeing with them. That's the whole point of sharing, after all. But putting it into print and not crediting me doesn't go far with me, let alone claiming it was your idea in the first place. Give me a break.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Not that it will alter anything you might post, but as I said the historical data on chicken vs egg is readily available here. As for Schwartz, the obvious deduction on his probable allegiance doesnt belong to anyone.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Jon,

I should have said that her feet were facing the gate, which might indicate that she was attempting to exit the Yard: see post 327

When you couple that with her being grabbed by the scarf, which was then twisted, you also might conclude that she was facuing the gates and the assailant was in the passageway behind her.

[Jon Guy]

Hi JohnG,all

I think people are making to much of her body position on the ground, and which way her feet were facing.

She could have fallen, been forced down, expired and/or landed in any position.
Or once down could have struggled,squirmed or moved into any position.

Absolutely, agreed Mr N !!

[John G]

'Proof' is some what difficult...

I'd observe that Stride was described as Pale, while Chapman was described as rudy.... A possible explanation for this might be that Strides blood supply was cut due to pressure on the Artery, possibly by the scarf being pulled tight, where as Chapman was apparently strangled or throttled.

Its my belief the The Hammersmith nude victims were also strangled like Stride... Possibly with a stocking? They were only unconscious, hence they drowned when thrown in the river... So its possible Stride did regain consciousness if this was the method....

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Lack of bruising around the neck would suggest that she was not strangled, although this cannot be ruled out. Dr Biggs stated:

"Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would of course be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation/suffocation" (Marriott, 2015).

Of course, the issue of lack of bruising around the neck was an important factor in the Rose Mylett case, where the medical opinion was divided as to whether she had been strangled.

[John G]

We don`t know which way her feet were pointing, John, or do we ? Considering her position I would say her feet would be pointing towards the wall or thereabouts.

Even if her feet were pointing towards the street, it probably means that she was manhandled into whatever position suited her killer.

Hello Jon,

It was Morris Eagle, at the inquest, who said that her feet were to the gate.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jeff,

Lack of bruising around the neck would suggest that she was not strangled, although this cannot be ruled out. Dr Biggs stated:

"Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would of course be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation/suffocation" (Marriott, 2015).

Of course, the issue of lack of bruising around the neck was an important factor in the Rose Mylett case, where the medical opinion was divided as to whether she had been strangled.

A hand over the mouth and nose (like Nichols) wouldn`t leave bruising around the neck, John.

[John G]

A hand over the mouth and nose (like Nichols) wouldn`t leave bruising around the neck, John.

Hello Jon,

Are you suggesting she was suffocated? I suppose it's possible, but there's no evidence for this.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

Are you suggesting she was suffocated? I suppose it's possible, but there's no evidence for this.

Hi John,

No evidence for suffocation ?

What about the fact that she seems to have been laid down, no-one heard anything and there are no signs of strangulation ?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff,

Lack of bruising around the neck would suggest that she was not strangled, although this cannot be ruled out. Dr Biggs stated:

"Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would of course be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation/suffocation" (Marriott, 2015).

Of course, the issue of lack of bruising around the neck was an important factor in the Rose Mylett case, where the medical opinion was divided as to whether she had been strangled.

One thing that was clear was that the pressure that was applied by pulling and twisting the scarf remained consistent through the throat cut, based on the nicking of the scarf during the cut. That translates to someone cutting while the victim was still awake and conscious, albeit, with compromised breathing capabilities.

I believe the evidence in the first 2 victims shows that they had been subdued, set on the ground, and were on their backs before their throats were cut. Liz Stride might well have been cut while still struggling with the choke hold by the scarf, and while falling.

[John G]

Hi John,

No evidence for suffocation ?

What about the fact that she seems to have been laid down, no-one heard anything and there are no signs of strangulation ?

Hello Jon,

There are no medical signs/evidence of strangulation/suffocation, although based upon Dr Biggs' opinion clearly neither of these options can be ruled out. However, she may have been caught by surprise, from behind, and her throat quickly cut, giving her no opportunity to resist or cry out.

[John G]

One thing that was clear was that the pressure that was applied by pulling and twisting the scarf remained consistent through the throat cut, based on the nicking of the scarf during the cut. That translates to someone cutting while the victim was still awake and conscious, albeit, with compromised breathing capabilities.

I believe the evidence in the first 2 victims shows that they had been subdued, set on the ground, and were on their backs before their throats were cut. Liz Stride might well have been cut while still struggling with the choke hold by the scarf, and while falling.

Hello Michael,

Yes, this is possible, although Dr Phillips, of course, suggested a different scenario.