Schwartz v. Lawende

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you misunderstand me Mike.
The confusion was over the use of the term 'Fixed Point' when relating the procedure of a City sergeant.
That paragraph concerning the duties of a City sergeant did not apply to a Fixed Point duty as we know on the Metropolitan force.
All that City sergeant was doing was checking the beat constable was on time with his beat. The Met. force had the same type of system for making sure the constable on his beat was keeping to his schedule.

Hi Wick,

I don’t know if you saw Neil’s reply on the Ask Monty thread?


“The Section Sergeant (who would be on constant patrol around his section) would commonly release the Fixed Point Officer at the allotted time.

if the Section Sergeant would know he would be unavailable to release the FP Officer then a reserve would be arranged or, in some cases, the Station Inspector would do the duty if he was available.“

[rjpalmer]

I think you misunderstand me Mike.
The confusion was over the use of the term 'Fixed Point' when relating the procedure of a City sergeant.
That paragraph concerning the duties of a City sergeant did not apply to a Fixed Point duty as we know on the Metropolitan force.
All that City sergeant was doing was checking the beat constable was on time with his beat. The Met. force had the same type of system for making sure the constable on his beat was keeping to his schedule.

Didn't the Met also use 'fixed points' for checking in with beat constables? From my reading of Neil's book, I didn't get the impression that this only applied to the City force (it's discussed on pg. 84).

[JeffHamm]

Did the sergeant do his rounds on a bicycle, blowing a whistle to signify end of shift?
Sounding more like pantomime now

Bagpipes, I bet it was bagpipes. Not need for a bicycle, just stand outside the station for a rendition of Scotland the Brave and every FP on duty can clock off.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

So it wasn’t a matter of the Fixed Point PC that the sergeant saw first going home much earlier than the one that he got to last then.

I think you misunderstand me Mike.
The confusion was over the use of the term 'Fixed Point' when relating the procedure of a City sergeant.
That paragraph concerning the duties of a City sergeant did not apply to a Fixed Point duty as we know on the Metropolitan force.
All that City sergeant was doing was checking the beat constable was on time with his beat. The Met. force had the same type of system for making sure the constable on his beat was keeping to his schedule.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think the procedure was for a constable to write a report at the station after his shift was over. So it seems they would not finish work at 1:00, that was just the end of duty time.

So it wasn’t a matter of the Fixed Point PC that the sergeant saw first going home much earlier than the one that he got to last then.

[Wickerman]

Maybe they all had to go back to the station so that in the end they all finished and went home at the same time?

I think the procedure was for a constable to write a report at the station after his shift was over. So it seems they would not finish work at 1:00, that was just the end of duty time.

[Wickerman]

Did the sergeant do his rounds on a bicycle, blowing a whistle to signify end of shift?
Sounding more like pantomime now

[JeffHamm]

The thing is, superficially, if you have 24 F.P. constables who have to be relieved at 1:00 am. That means you need 24 sergeants on night duty to relieve all of them on time. If one sergeant has to relieve two F.P. constables, then one of them is going to be late.
I'm just thinking there must be more to it than that.

Yah, that's what I was thinking too, there would be a staggering of relief times. Unless, I suppose, the sergeant would make the rounds before 1:00, and tell the fixed point officer how much time was remaining? That way, all of them would be tied to the sergeant's watch as an official time to clock off ("I say, that clock is 5 minutes fast, so you're on duty until it reads 1:05") type thing?

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

The thing is, superficially, if you have 24 F.P. constables who have to be relieved at 1:00 am. That means you need 24 sergeants on night duty to relieve all of them on time. If one sergeant has to relieve two F.P. constables, then one of them is going to be late.
I'm just thinking there must be more to it than that.

Maybe they all had to go back to the station so that in the end they all finished and went home at the same time?

[Wickerman]

The thing is, superficially, if you have 24 F.P. constables who have to be relieved at 1:00 am. That means you need 24 sergeants on night duty to relieve all of them on time. If one sergeant has to relieve two F.P. constables, then one of them is going to be late.
I'm just thinking there must be more to it than that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have a vague memory of that too. But similar to Wickerman, it seems inefficient to send out someone who has to go all over the place to tell them it is the end of their shift.

And if there was a sergeant making rounds, where is he? He should show up I would think give he has to relieve the above mentioned FP Pc and couldn't help but notice the commotion at the club so would have to ooo down for a "What's all this then?" at the very least.

But, maybe that was how it was done: administration can produce odd protocols.

- Jeff

That gives me hope that I’m not entirely imagining things. We need Monty on this one. If I right I promise not to look smug Jeff.

[JeffHamm]

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

I have a vague memory of that too. But similar to Wickerman, it seems inefficient to send out someone who has to go all over the place to tell them it is the end of their shift.

And if there was a sergeant making rounds, where is he? He should show up I would think give he has to relieve the above mentioned FP Pc and couldn't help but notice the commotion at the club so would have to ooo down for a "What's all this then?" at the very least.

But, maybe that was how it was done: administration can produce odd protocols.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Neil has always been an invaluable source of knowledge of Met police duties & operations. He only posted a week ago, so if he is still around I would like him to confirm what you wrote above. I ask because as far as I can tell there were 26 Fixed Point Duties in H Division, Two of which extended until 7:00 am, so we have 24 constables all finishing their F.P. duty at 1:00 am. How many sergeant's are sent out across the division to enable the constables to be relieved at 1:00am?
It just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

When you put it like that I can certainly see your point. Maybe I misremembered what Neil said? I started up an ‘Ask Monty’ thread a while ago so I’ll put the question there.

[Wickerman]

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.

Neil has always been an invaluable source of knowledge of Met police duties & operations. He only posted a week ago, so if he is still around I would like him to confirm what you wrote above. I ask because as far as I can tell there were 26 Fixed Point Duties in H Division, Two of which extended until 7:00 am, so we have 24 constables all finishing their F.P. duty at 1:00 am. How many sergeant's are sent out across the division to enable the constables to be relieved at 1:00am?
It just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi NBFN,

I think those on fixed point, given their duties were subsumed by the beat PC, would probably just leave when it was 1 o'clock and didn't have to wait for the beat PC to relieve them. The beat PC would know that they were gone on their next round (and given they had to keep track of the time and their beat durations, would know when they passed him for the last time).

Fixed point PCs presumably would have to have a time piece of some sort to consult, either being at a location in sight of a clock, or perhaps were issued (or required to have) a watch on them. They would be required to record in their notebooks the time of any events they noted down, and unlike a beat PC who is likely to pass a clock at some point on their rounds, a fixed point PC can either see a clock from that location, or they cannot. If not, they would have to have a watch in order to do their job I would think. I don't know that for a fact, but it seems reasonable that they must have some way of accessing the time.

I also have a vague memory of something like a senior police officer would make the rounds to relieve the fixed point PCs, but that means they are relieved over a period of time starting at 1, rather than all finish up at 1 precisely. That seems fairly impractical, and I may be just recalling how senior officers would make the rounds to ensure the PCs were doing their beats according to regulations, etc, and have let that memory blur into relieving fixed point PCs.

- Jeff

I’m fairly certain that Neil Bell said that it was the duty of a sergeant to go around telling Fixed Point officers that their period on duty was over. I also seem to remember Neil saying that if a sergeant wasn’t available another officer was assigned to that duty. I’ll stand correcting on this of course Jeff but I’m pretty sure that’s what Neil said.