Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

Hi Jon,

I think its more probable that, considering that BSM and PM are at this stage still just constructs within a story and not verified people at that scene by anyone, that Liz Strides killer was not seen by any witness. Which would lend itself to someone on the property who didnt go out on the street from 12:35 to 1am.

Hello Michael,

But what about PC Smith's suspect?

I doubt if it was anyone who left the club after 12:30 as their absence would probably have been noted-and don't think this is something the club would have been likely to cover up. I mean, if that was the intention, why did Lave admit going into the yard, when the only witnesses would have been club members?

[Joshua Rogan]

There's this myth that Stride 'made herself up' that has been going around for years. I believe this stems from the fact that many of the victims were essentially homeless and wore/carried all their belongings with them. But Stride had lived in her own place with Kidney for years and possessed good clothes. That's why the press says she doesn't look like she's from the area and there was speculation that she'd been lured there from the west side. But there's no suggestion that she looked any better that day than on any given weekend. That's just the clothes she had. What I thought was most interesting is that even though she rarely lived in the lodging house, she was able to waltz in and get paid by the deputy to do cleaning. This must have stirred the ire of longer term residences who were not so cozy with the deputy. But this idea that she got gussied up with a date for a secret boyfriend falls flat when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I agree almost completely, but are you sure she lived at Devonshire St with Kidney for years? She was apparently well known at the 32 Flower & Dean St lodging house, having lived there on and off for "most of the last six years", although she'd just moved back after a prolonged absence. That's according to Thomas Bates, the watchman, interviewed by the Star, 1st Oct.
He is quoted as saying of Stride;
"Lor' bless you, when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and a cleaner woman never lived."
So it seems she was very much in the habit of taking care or her appearance, not just on this one night.

[Wickerman]

.... when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Not to advocate any "boyfriend" theory, but it is not clear she was with different men between 11:00pm & her death.
We have suspicions, and there are arguments both for and against, but neither position is clearly correct.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff.

It looks like, so long as the man is spending his money on her, she has no reason to dump him. It isn't every prostitute who is treated to cheese, potato and pastry or bread all washed down with ale.
No wonder she stayed with him for so long.

I wouldn't like to say if her killer was Jack, but I suspect the Smith suspect was her killer.

I've often wondered if Jack offered presents to the victims...'see what a jolly new bonnet I have?'

It fits with Aaron Kozminski based in Butchers Row?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

There's this myth that Stride 'made herself up' that has been going around for years. I believe this stems from the fact that many of the victims were essentially homeless and wore/carried all their belongings with them. But Stride had lived in her own place with Kidney for years and possessed good clothes. That's why the press says she doesn't look like she's from the area and there was speculation that she'd been lured there from the west side. But there's no suggestion that she looked any better that day than on any given weekend. That's just the clothes she had. What I thought was most interesting is that even though she rarely lived in the lodging house, she was able to waltz in and get paid by the deputy to do cleaning. This must have stirred the ire of longer term residences who were not so cozy with the deputy. But this idea that she got gussied up with a date for a secret boyfriend falls flat when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

But surely that goes to the heart of what is being argued...

Actually I agee with you that Stride was Soliciting

But others are arguing she was with ONE client from 11 PM

Persoanlly I thing that unlikely..

Many thanks

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, it's strange he appears to have forgotten about the Lawende sighting. However, he was a City Police witness, so would Abberline have had any involvement in the Eddowes murder inquiry?

Of course, he must have known about Lawende initially, if only from the press reports, but his recollection may have been defective. And Lawende didn't exactly come across as a very inspiring witness at the time, stating that he doubted he would recognize the suspect again. So maybe, when trying to recall events several years later, he assumed that he had only seen the suspect from the back. In fact, could he have got the suspect mixed up with Lawende's sighting of Eddowes, who he clearly only got a back view of?

I'm going to with draw here...I've come across new information and think I can finally connect Cox and Sagars reports to Kozminski... watch this space...catch you soon... Jeff

[Tom_Wescott]

But surely that goes to the heart of what is being argued...

Actually I agee with you that Stride was Soliciting

But others are arguing she was with ONE client from 11 PM

Persoanlly I thing that unlikely..

Many thanks

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff. Just because people argue it doesn't mean they have a sustainable argument. Most of the stuff that gets 'argued' is ill-informed and sometimes nonsensical. I'm not referring any people or person on this thread, just in general. For instance, it gets argued that Packer sold Stride and a man grapes in spite of the wealth of evidence proving that untrue, including Packer's own denial to the police. But if for some reason a writer wants grapes or wants to create a cover-up where none existed, then they'll argue that Packer was a victim of corrupt policing. It spins the head.

I agree almost completely, but are you sure she lived at Devonshire St with Kidney for years? She was apparently well known at the 32 Flower & Dean St lodging house, having lived there on and off for "most of the last six years", although she'd just moved back after a prolonged absence. That's according to Thomas Bates, the watchman, interviewed by the Star, 1st Oct.
He is quoted as saying of Stride;
"Lor' bless you, when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and a cleaner woman never lived."
So it seems she was very much in the habit of taking care or her appearance, not just on this one night.

Hi Josh. She had lived off and on with Kidney for years and could choose when to live in a lodging house and when not to. She was an alcoholic and I imagine her stays in the lodging house were drinking binge vacations for her. Stride was familiar with the Berner Street/Tiger Bay area and in fact had visited a friend of hers there not long before her death. I published that interview years ago in an essay. She and Kidney had a volatile relationship, and he could be rough, but his abuse of Stride has been greatly exaggerated over the years. For instance, he never locked her in their rooms as modern Ripper authors claim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

I've often wondered if Jack offered presents to the victims...'see what a jolly new bonnet I have?'

Rather like Eddowes drinking money.

Down payments.

[DJA]

it gets argued that Packer sold Stride and a man grapes in spite of the wealth of evidence proving that untrue, including Packer's own denial to the police. But if for some reason a writer wants grapes or wants to create a cover-up where none existed, then they'll argue that Packer was a victim of corrupt policing. It spins the head.

Warren and other heavies showed considerable interest in Packer.

Might explain his change of mind.

It had stopped raining for well over an hour from 11am.

BS man may have eaten the grapes.

Reckon BS man was Liz's bodyguard.

It was after he left that Jack struck.

[drstrange169]

>Stride was familiar with the Berner Street/Tiger Bay area ...<

Not only that, Berner Street was a route to the Swedish church, a little father south, that she visited regularly.

Plus I seem to recall one paper quoting a policeman says she was known for soliciting in the general area.

[drstrange169]

>Warren and other heavies showed considerable interest in Packer.<<


This ,of course, was specifically in regard to the fuss the newspaper article about Le G and B created.

[DJA]

There are conflicting newspaper stories about Stride's character.

Many are to her benefit.

A Club member told the Inquiry that soliciting was not a problem in their immediate vicinity.

Packer was interrogated by Warren.

Any other witness get that treatment!

Like Mary Kelly,there are curious clues that have not been looked at.

Dr. Phillips inspected Stride at least twice and came away with very detailed evidence for the Inquiry.

The very thing that gave her the name of Hip Lip Liz was not mentioned.

Cachous are an astringent medicine for that particular condition.

Phillips would have known that.

[Wickerman]

What did Warren know about interrogation?, Abberline was the interrogation officer, not the Commissioner.
Two ne'er-do-well private detectives are going to get an audience at a moments notice with the Commissioner of Police?
This just gets better....

[DJA]

Charles Warren interviewed Packer on 4th October at Scotland Yard.

Packer had already identified Stride's corpse and been interviewed by a few people involved in the case.

Perhaps Chuckie and Mattie had tea and scones and discussed the weather....but not of "that night".

Say hi to the Gruff family for me,next time you have a tete a tete.

[Tom_Wescott]

Warren would have been very surprised to learn that he ever met, let alone interviewed, Matthew Packer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott