Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

Someone asked, based on the Schwartz tale, why would she go into a dark passageway with someone who caused her to fall in the street,and then why would she turn her back to him? Simple. She wouldnt have. She was street wise.

Yes, I tend to agree Michael!

[Robert St Devil]

Hello John G.

PTI, no intention to detract.

I am still open to the idea of more than one killer but that isnt my primary point regarding th cachous. Currently I believe Jack the Ripper strangled his victims, and i think those neckerchiefs played an integral role. I have reviewed some aspects of garroting, the MO as fascinating if not more than the identity. What i am considering is his method of restraining/overpowering his victim. Here's where I am at: somehow her hand was restrained. Many of the women are reported to have dime sized bruises between their thumb and fingers. It works easier if you use 2 killers - one strangles while the other restrains her hands. However there is a possibility one man could have done both actionns - strangled with one hand while reaching around and clasping her hand. Thereby clinching her hand around the pCket of cachous.

[John G]

Well, personally, I`d rather discuss the details than all the endless, circular speculation (yes I can be guilty of this too).

But, for my own education, I would like to see any details about what Stride wore to do the cleaning in.

Hello Jon,

Got the name right this time! Sorry for the previous inexplicable error!

Personally I'd like to discuss how Schwartz's evidence can be compatible with a revised timeline for PC Smith's beat but, like the cachous problem, no one seems to have any answers!

[Abby Normal]

Hi JohnG, MR and Jeff

The problem is this-if her scarf is being pulled tight by her killer-her natural reaction (anyones) would be to for her to grab at the scarf with her hands.

if the argument is that she would surely drop the cashoo while being thrown to the ground (BS man), then she would also surely drop them if she is being choked with her scarf.

If shes going to drop them to open her hands to brace her fall, then she would surely drop them to open her hands to pull on the tightened scarf.

Both would involve her opening her hands and dropping the cashoo.

you cant have it both ways, unless of course you susbscribe to the the theory that anything but BS man as her killer.

or that she simply held onto the cashoo either on purpose or by reflex through the attack(s).

[John G]

Hi JohnG, MR and Jeff

The problem is this-if her scarf is being pulled tight by her killer-her natural reaction (anyones) would be to for her to grab at the scarf with her hands.

if the argument is that she would surely drop the cashoo while being thrown to the ground (BS man), then she would also surely drop them if she is being choked with her scarf.

If shes going to drop them to open her hands to brace her fall, then she would surely drop them to open her hands to pull on the tightened scarf.

Both would involve her opening her hands and dropping the cashoo.

you cant have it both ways, unless of course you susbscribe to the the theory that anything but BS man as her killer.

or that she simply held onto the cashoo either on purpose or by reflex through the attack(s).

Hello Abby,

Yes, this is a very good point. I am far from convinced that she was strangled/choked with the scarf, and there are certainly no signs of strangulation. However, I do believe that she was brought to the ground with her killer stood behind her, hence no reason to break the fall.

[John G]

Hello John G.

PTI, no intention to detract.

I am still open to the idea of more than one killer but that isnt my primary point regarding th cachous. Currently I believe Jack the Ripper strangled his victims, and i think those neckerchiefs played an integral role. I have reviewed some aspects of garroting, the MO as fascinating if not more than the identity. What i am considering is his method of restraining/overpowering his victim. Here's where I am at: somehow her hand was restrained. Many of the women are reported to have dime sized bruises between their thumb and fingers. It works easier if you use 2 killers - one strangles while the other restrains her hands. However there is a possibility one man could have done both actionns - strangled with one hand while reaching around and clasping her hand. Thereby clinching her hand around the pCket of cachous.

Hi Robert,

Well, it's a theory worth exploring, however, I very much doubt that there were two killers.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, wasn't it believed that the latter bodies were stored in a transformer shed, belonging to the Napier Factory on the Heron Trading Estate? I believe O'Hara's body was dumped just 150 yards from the shed.

Sorry if this is a little off topic...I'll make it quick..

Yes thats right, we've been going over the forensics. They seemed pretty certain they had pin pointed one substation. I gave a lecture last year where i pointed out this rules out Mungo Ireland as he did start working as a security guard on the estate until October 1963 some months after Flemming and Brown were stored there...

Is the transformer shed still there? Does the Heron Estate still exist?

Bizarrely enough I have the maps infront of me now, and I'm not certain of the Definitive answer to that.... I'm hoping to meet 007 soon and see if we can figure it out on the ground....but the estate is still there not certain about the original substation.

I must admit, I've been fascinated by the Jack the Stripper murders since reading David Seabrook's book some time ago. Wasn't he given access to unreleased police files by mistake?

He came across the files by accident at Hendon (Don't know why they were there) while researching Fredie Mills... luckily he lifts a lot of the MEPO files word for word, so I've created a cut a paste of the factual information... But getting g to see the originals is impossible now...still trying

You say you're hoping to film at the substation: are you considering making a documentary? I think the Hammersmith Nude Murders are certainly deserving of a documentary particularly, as a series of crimes almost as fascinating as the Whitechapel murders, they have largely been neglected, with few books on the subject.

I can recommend Neil Milkins book who was Jack the Stripper for research and yes I'd very much like a 'Definitive' on the subject... I'm currently chasing some new leads.... All I can say is who it wasn't...I think most of the traditional suspects upto and Seabrookes Cushway can be dismissed...

If your interested I could post some photos on 'Other Mysteries' in a few weeks if we have any joy pin pointing the correct sub station...I think i had it wrong before...

Yours Jeff

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

Got the name right this time! Sorry for the previous inexplicable error!!

No probs, Iohn, anyone could make it ;-)

Personally I'd like to discuss how Schwartz's evidence can be compatible with a revised timeline for PC Smith's beat but, like the cachous problem, no one seems to have any answers!

I`ve answered all possible cachous problems ?

[Michael W Richards]

Again-Anything but BS man.

BSMan is a character in a story, he is not a verified assailant nor is he someone we can say for certain, exists. I believe Tom stated a few pages ago that when trying to reconcile the times provided by witnesses with other witness accounts, its difficult to see how that unseen or unheard event took place..at least at the time its established within Schwartz's account.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Yes, this is a very good point. I am far from convinced that she was strangled/choked with the scarf, and there are certainly no signs of strangulation. However, I do believe that she was brought to the ground with her killer stood behind her, hence no reason to break the fall.

Thanks JohnG

How do think her scarf got pulled so tight then, if it wasn't done by her attacker?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi JohnG, MR and Jeff

The problem is this-if her scarf is being pulled tight by her killer-her natural reaction (anyones) would be to for her to grab at the scarf with her hands.

if the argument is that she would surely drop the cashoo while being thrown to the ground (BS man), then she would also surely drop them if she is being choked with her scarf.

If shes going to drop them to open her hands to brace her fall, then she would surely drop them to open her hands to pull on the tightened scarf.

Both would involve her opening her hands and dropping the cashoo.

you cant have it both ways, unless of course you susbscribe to the the theory that anything but BS man as her killer.

or that she simply held onto the cashoo either on purpose or by reflex through the attack(s).

If she had her back to the killer her left arm holding the cachous could be pulled up hard behind her back while the killers other hand pulled the scarf tight?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi John

On the subject of strangulation I had an interesting conversation a while ago about its use in bizarre sexual practice. The person using a ligature to cut the blood supply to the brain to induce heightened orgasm..

I think this is what INXS Hutchinson was trying to do when he killed himself..

The conversation turned to Harold Jones homosexual practices in Maidstone prison and whether he might have learned or used such practices, hence learning the right amount of pressure to knock out a victim without killing them...

I'm not suggesting Jack the Ripper knew about such practice but possibly created a similar effect pulling Stride back by her scarf while pushing the other arm up behind her.... He the walked forward into the yard lowering her unconscious body gently as he did so...still holding the scarf he cuts the throat with the now free hand..

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

If she had her back to the killer her left arm holding the cachous could be pulled up hard behind her back while the killers other hand pulled the scarf tight?

Yours Jeff

OK so In this scenario, BS man is a lie, Schwartz was never there, she willingly goes into the yard with another unknown, unwitnessed man for prostitution sex, turns her back to him and that's when the attack occurs?

[John G]

Sorry if this is a little off topic...I'll make it quick..

Yes thats right, we've been going over the forensics. They seemed pretty certain they had pin pointed one substation. I gave a lecture last year where i pointed out this rules out Mungo Ireland as he did start working as a security guard on the estate until October 1963 some months after Flemming and Brown were stored there...



Bizarrely enough I have the maps infront of me now, and I'm not certain of the Definitive answer to that.... I'm hoping to meet 007 soon and see if we can figure it out on the ground....but the estate is still there not certain about the original substation.



He came across the files by accident at Hendon (Don't know why they were there) while researching Fredie Mills... luckily he lifts a lot of the MEPO files word for word, so I've created a cut a paste of the factual information... But getting g to see the originals is impossible now...still trying



I can recommend Neil Milkins book who was Jack the Stripper for research and yes I'd very much like a 'Definitive' on the subject... I'm currently chasing some new leads.... All I can say is who it wasn't...I think most of the traditional suspects upto and Seabrookes Cushway can be dismissed...

If your interested I could post some photos on 'Other Mysteries' in a few weeks if we have any joy pin pointing the correct sub station...I think i had it wrong before...

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Thanks. Yes, I would be certainly interested in seeing the photos.

Thanks for the Neil Milkins recommendation, I did look into purchasing the book some time ago, but it seems to be out of print. I generally enjoyed David Seabrook's book, although I think the derogatory comments he made about the unfortunate victims were frankly a disgrace.

Mungo Ireland, I believe was Du Rose's suspect, but according to Seabrook he was in Scotland on the 11 January, the date of O'Hara's disappearance. He also quotes Detective Superintendent William Baldock referring to Du Rose's "Four Day Johnny" nickname:" John Du Rose should never have been called in. He hindered more than helped. 'Four Day Johnny!'. And if he couldn't solve it in four days he wasn't interested."

Is William Bakdock still alive? When Seabrook interviewed him he was 89 and living in Finchley.

[Jeff Leahy]

OK so In this scenario, BS man is a lie, Schwartz was never there, she willingly goes into the yard with another unknown, unwitnessed man for prostitution sex, turns her back to him and that's when the attack occurs?

I personally think it more probable Schwartz witnesses Strides murder but doesn't realise it...

His POV is after all at 180 when BSM turns and shouts Lipski so whether he is on the pavement or slightly inside the yard is a difficult to determine

Yours jef