Originally posted by Michael W Richards
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Schwartz v. Lawende
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Hello John G.
PTI, no intention to detract.
I am still open to the idea of more than one killer but that isnt my primary point regarding th cachous. Currently I believe Jack the Ripper strangled his victims, and i think those neckerchiefs played an integral role. I have reviewed some aspects of garroting, the MO as fascinating if not more than the identity. What i am considering is his method of restraining/overpowering his victim. Here's where I am at: somehow her hand was restrained. Many of the women are reported to have dime sized bruises between their thumb and fingers. It works easier if you use 2 killers - one strangles while the other restrains her hands. However there is a possibility one man could have done both actionns - strangled with one hand while reaching around and clasping her hand. Thereby clinching her hand around the pCket of cachous.there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
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Originally posted by Jon Guy View PostWell, personally, I`d rather discuss the details than all the endless, circular speculation (yes I can be guilty of this too).
But, for my own education, I would like to see any details about what Stride wore to do the cleaning in.
Got the name right this time! Sorry for the previous inexplicable error!
Personally I'd like to discuss how Schwartz's evidence can be compatible with a revised timeline for PC Smith's beat but, like the cachous problem, no one seems to have any answers!
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Hi JohnG, MR and Jeff
The problem is this-if her scarf is being pulled tight by her killer-her natural reaction (anyones) would be to for her to grab at the scarf with her hands.
if the argument is that she would surely drop the cashoo while being thrown to the ground (BS man), then she would also surely drop them if she is being choked with her scarf.
If shes going to drop them to open her hands to brace her fall, then she would surely drop them to open her hands to pull on the tightened scarf.
Both would involve her opening her hands and dropping the cashoo.
you cant have it both ways, unless of course you susbscribe to the the theory that anything but BS man as her killer.
or that she simply held onto the cashoo either on purpose or by reflex through the attack(s).
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostHi JohnG, MR and Jeff
The problem is this-if her scarf is being pulled tight by her killer-her natural reaction (anyones) would be to for her to grab at the scarf with her hands.
if the argument is that she would surely drop the cashoo while being thrown to the ground (BS man), then she would also surely drop them if she is being choked with her scarf.
If shes going to drop them to open her hands to brace her fall, then she would surely drop them to open her hands to pull on the tightened scarf.
Both would involve her opening her hands and dropping the cashoo.
you cant have it both ways, unless of course you susbscribe to the the theory that anything but BS man as her killer.
or that she simply held onto the cashoo either on purpose or by reflex through the attack(s).
Yes, this is a very good point. I am far from convinced that she was strangled/choked with the scarf, and there are certainly no signs of strangulation. However, I do believe that she was brought to the ground with her killer stood behind her, hence no reason to break the fall.
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Originally posted by Robert St Devil View PostHello John G.
PTI, no intention to detract.
I am still open to the idea of more than one killer but that isnt my primary point regarding th cachous. Currently I believe Jack the Ripper strangled his victims, and i think those neckerchiefs played an integral role. I have reviewed some aspects of garroting, the MO as fascinating if not more than the identity. What i am considering is his method of restraining/overpowering his victim. Here's where I am at: somehow her hand was restrained. Many of the women are reported to have dime sized bruises between their thumb and fingers. It works easier if you use 2 killers - one strangles while the other restrains her hands. However there is a possibility one man could have done both actionns - strangled with one hand while reaching around and clasping her hand. Thereby clinching her hand around the pCket of cachous.
Well, it's a theory worth exploring, however, I very much doubt that there were two killers.
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Originally posted by John G View PostHi Jeff,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, wasn't it believed that the latter bodies were stored in a transformer shed, belonging to the Napier Factory on the Heron Trading Estate? I believe O'Hara's body was dumped just 150 yards from the shed.
Yes thats right, we've been going over the forensics. They seemed pretty certain they had pin pointed one substation. I gave a lecture last year where i pointed out this rules out Mungo Ireland as he did start working as a security guard on the estate until October 1963 some months after Flemming and Brown were stored there...
Originally posted by John G View PostIs the transformer shed still there? Does the Heron Estate still exist?
Originally posted by John G View PostI must admit, I've been fascinated by the Jack the Stripper murders since reading David Seabrook's book some time ago. Wasn't he given access to unreleased police files by mistake?
Originally posted by John G View PostYou say you're hoping to film at the substation: are you considering making a documentary? I think the Hammersmith Nude Murders are certainly deserving of a documentary particularly, as a series of crimes almost as fascinating as the Whitechapel murders, they have largely been neglected, with few books on the subject.
If your interested I could post some photos on 'Other Mysteries' in a few weeks if we have any joy pin pointing the correct sub station...I think i had it wrong before...
Yours Jeff
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Originally posted by John G View PostHello Jon,
Got the name right this time! Sorry for the previous inexplicable error!!
Personally I'd like to discuss how Schwartz's evidence can be compatible with a revised timeline for PC Smith's beat but, like the cachous problem, no one seems to have any answers!
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostAgain-Anything but BS man.
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Originally posted by John G View PostHello Abby,
Yes, this is a very good point. I am far from convinced that she was strangled/choked with the scarf, and there are certainly no signs of strangulation. However, I do believe that she was brought to the ground with her killer stood behind her, hence no reason to break the fall.
How do think her scarf got pulled so tight then, if it wasn't done by her attacker?
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostHi JohnG, MR and Jeff
The problem is this-if her scarf is being pulled tight by her killer-her natural reaction (anyones) would be to for her to grab at the scarf with her hands.
if the argument is that she would surely drop the cashoo while being thrown to the ground (BS man), then she would also surely drop them if she is being choked with her scarf.
If shes going to drop them to open her hands to brace her fall, then she would surely drop them to open her hands to pull on the tightened scarf.
Both would involve her opening her hands and dropping the cashoo.
you cant have it both ways, unless of course you susbscribe to the the theory that anything but BS man as her killer.
or that she simply held onto the cashoo either on purpose or by reflex through the attack(s).
Yours Jeff
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Hi John
On the subject of strangulation I had an interesting conversation a while ago about its use in bizarre sexual practice. The person using a ligature to cut the blood supply to the brain to induce heightened orgasm..
I think this is what INXS Hutchinson was trying to do when he killed himself..
The conversation turned to Harold Jones homosexual practices in Maidstone prison and whether he might have learned or used such practices, hence learning the right amount of pressure to knock out a victim without killing them...
I'm not suggesting Jack the Ripper knew about such practice but possibly created a similar effect pulling Stride back by her scarf while pushing the other arm up behind her.... He the walked forward into the yard lowering her unconscious body gently as he did so...still holding the scarf he cuts the throat with the now free hand..
Yours Jeff
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Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View PostIf she had her back to the killer her left arm holding the cachous could be pulled up hard behind her back while the killers other hand pulled the scarf tight?
Yours Jeff
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Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View PostSorry if this is a little off topic...I'll make it quick..
Yes thats right, we've been going over the forensics. They seemed pretty certain they had pin pointed one substation. I gave a lecture last year where i pointed out this rules out Mungo Ireland as he did start working as a security guard on the estate until October 1963 some months after Flemming and Brown were stored there...
Bizarrely enough I have the maps infront of me now, and I'm not certain of the Definitive answer to that.... I'm hoping to meet 007 soon and see if we can figure it out on the ground....but the estate is still there not certain about the original substation.
He came across the files by accident at Hendon (Don't know why they were there) while researching Fredie Mills... luckily he lifts a lot of the MEPO files word for word, so I've created a cut a paste of the factual information... But getting g to see the originals is impossible now...still trying
I can recommend Neil Milkins book who was Jack the Stripper for research and yes I'd very much like a 'Definitive' on the subject... I'm currently chasing some new leads.... All I can say is who it wasn't...I think most of the traditional suspects upto and Seabrookes Cushway can be dismissed...
If your interested I could post some photos on 'Other Mysteries' in a few weeks if we have any joy pin pointing the correct sub station...I think i had it wrong before...
Yours Jeff
Thanks. Yes, I would be certainly interested in seeing the photos.
Thanks for the Neil Milkins recommendation, I did look into purchasing the book some time ago, but it seems to be out of print. I generally enjoyed David Seabrook's book, although I think the derogatory comments he made about the unfortunate victims were frankly a disgrace.
Mungo Ireland, I believe was Du Rose's suspect, but according to Seabrook he was in Scotland on the 11 January, the date of O'Hara's disappearance. He also quotes Detective Superintendent William Baldock referring to Du Rose's "Four Day Johnny" nickname:" John Du Rose should never have been called in. He hindered more than helped. 'Four Day Johnny!'. And if he couldn't solve it in four days he wasn't interested."
Is William Bakdock still alive? When Seabrook interviewed him he was 89 and living in Finchley.
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostOK so In this scenario, BS man is a lie, Schwartz was never there, she willingly goes into the yard with another unknown, unwitnessed man for prostitution sex, turns her back to him and that's when the attack occurs?
His POV is after all at 180 when BSM turns and shouts Lipski so whether he is on the pavement or slightly inside the yard is a difficult to determine
Yours jef
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