Packer and Schwartz

[Abby Normal]

Hello c.d.

Excellent post, and one I totally agree with.

Hello CD and JohnG
regarding swansons statement-like I said fairy tail. a man who dosnt exist except in your (and his) mind.

Stride has bruisings on both shoulders, and choked by her scarf and a slit throat dead on the ground. Any way you look at it she was violently murdered. if she can hold onto cashoo through this she can hold onto them through anything.

Your problems and the rest of the cashoo crowd is that you are looking for stuff that's not there-fairy tails, because it dosnt fit what you THINK should be present or happened. Probably to fit some pre conceived theory, instead of focusing on the evidence that is present.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

But that's not what Schwartz witnessed, despite having a good enough view to give a detailed account of the assault. And as I noted, it takes about 10-15 seconds for the onset of unconsciousness in a ligature strangulation, and I doubt the entire blitz attack "witnessed" by Schwartz would have taken that long. Moreover, there aren't any ligature marks. I also think that it would be highly unusual, and counter productive, for anyone to even attempt to pull someone into the street by grasping for a small scarf. And I would also have thought it would be extremely difficult to execute the other manoeuvres described by Schwartz, I.e. turn them around and propel them to the floor, using such a garment; the whole process is simply not expedient.

In all probability there would be other indicators of someone choking, such as a wheezing sound and the victim's hand instinctively moving to the throat,I.e. in an attempt to loosen the ligature:Schwartz saw none of these things.

A screaming sound is not consistent with a choking sound-the two are entirely different. The scarf could have been pulled tight during an attack from behind in the yard.

I`m not saying this is what happened, John
I`m just pointing out to you the salient bits in Schwartz`s statement summary.

[curious4]

Hello C4,

None of which Schwartz witnessed. She would not have lost consciousness quickly; it takes 10-15 seconds for the onset of unconsciousness to take effect as a consequence of being strangled by a ligature. See:http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

Well he didn't exactly hang around! I think we have to give some leeway here considering the need for translation. Therefore "screamed three times, but not loudly", could equally well translate to "cried out three times, but not loudly", and "threw her to the ground" at a pinch, could be "forced her into a sitting position on the ground/pavement. If you are translating from your own language into a foreign tongue there is often a paucity of vocabulary and add a pair of excitable Hungarians and it is a recipe for mix-ups. My children are completely bilingual, but at the cost of both languages. And as I have said before, translation is not an exact science - even though I may be pushing it a little with the second example. Apologies if I am being prejudiced about Hungarians. Only ever met one but he was half Danish and not very excitable - though he was exciting.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hello CD and JohnG
regarding swansons statement-like I said fairy tail. a man who dosnt exist except in your (and his) mind.

Stride has bruisings on both shoulders, and choked by her scarf and a slit throat dead on the ground. Any way you look at it she was violently murdered. if she can hold onto cashoo through this she can hold onto them through anything.

Your problems and the rest of the cashoo crowd is that you are looking for stuff that's not there-fairy tails, because it dosnt fit what you THINK should be present or happened. Probably to fit some pre conceived theory, instead of focusing on the evidence that is present.

I agree, we should focus on the evidence rather than simply ignoring or attempting to 're-write it, I.e. because it doesn't accord with her own pet theory. Evidence: Schwartz refers to Stride being thrown onto the footway. Conclusion: Stride instinctively throws out her arms and spreads her fingers to break the fall, thus dropping and spilling the cachous.

Now, if Stride was grabbed from behind, I.e. by PC Smith's suspect, and brought to the ground, there would be no fall to break-because her assailant would be supporting her. In fact, she might even have had her throat cut before being brought to the ground, thereby rendered unconscious.

Simple really!

[John G]

Well he didn't exactly hang around! I think we have to give some leeway here considering the need for translation. Therefore "screamed three times, but not loudly", could equally well translate to "cried out three times, but not loudly", and "threw her to the ground" at a pinch, could be "forced her into a sitting position on the ground/pavement. If you are translating from your own language into a foreign tongue there is often a paucity of vocabulary and add a pair of excitable Hungarians and it is a recipe for mix-ups. My children are completely bilingual, but at the cost of both languages. And as I have said before, translation is not an exact science - even though I may be pushing it a little with the second example. Apologies if I am being prejudiced about Hungarians. Only ever met one but he was half Danish and not very excitable - though he was exciting.

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

But the police report refers to the "man who threw her down". And he "turned her round a threw her down on the footway" Seems perfectly clear to me. And , if he was trying to pull her into the street, as Schwartz described , he must have had hold of her arms. Why would he suddenly disengage and grab hold of her shoulders? Why doesn't Schwartz mention this?

Okay I'm going to have a go at reinretpreting Schwartz's evidence myself. I think what he might have said is: "Of course, none of this is true. I only came here because Morris Eagle suggested it as an easy way to make money, I.e. from the press. However, I suspect he was intent on drawing suspicion away from himself and the club!"

Unfortunately, that bit got lost in translation!

[Jon Guy]

And , if he was trying to pull her into the street, as Schwartz described , he must have had hold of her arms!

.. why by her arms, John ? Why not her scarf, why not her shoulders

Where was Schwartz when this was going on ? He was still walking behind BS Man on the pavement. So, why would he have a good view.

[Abby Normal]

I agree, we should focus on the evidence rather than simply ignoring or attempting to 're-write it, I.e. because it doesn't accord with her own pet theory. Evidence: Schwartz refers to Stride being thrown onto the footway. Conclusion: Stride instinctively throws out her arms and spreads her fingers to break the fall, thus dropping and spilling the cachous.

Now, if Stride was grabbed from behind, I.e. by PC Smith's suspect, and brought to the ground, there would be no fall to break-because her assailant would be supporting her. In fact, she might even have had her throat cut before being brought to the ground, thereby rendered unconscious.

Simple really!

Hi JohnG

Evidence: Schwartz refers to Stride being thrown onto the footway. Conclusion: Stride instinctively throws out her arms and spreads her fingers to break the fall, thus dropping and spilling the cachous.

Not neccesarily-at all.
Maybe she didn't use her hands to break her fall.
Maybe she uses her hand that dosnt have the cashoo to break her fall.
Maybe she holds the cashoo in her thumb and forefinger (as described when found)and spreads the rest of her fingers to break the fall.

or maybe:
she has her throat cut during the initial struggle Schwartz witnesses and stumbles toward help-voices coming from the yard, but expires in the yard.

or-she breaks away from BS man and before her throat is cut, running for the yard and he catches her from behind.

or-she acquiesces to his desire to accompany him into the yard for sex after the initial struggle, taking out the cashoo then.


You see there are any number of possible scenarios that don't involve completely disregarding a viable witness in Schwartz, one who's story completely fit the circumstances of the night, including other witness sightings, comings and goings, and other witnesses suspects (peaked cap man). One who's story was never questioned as to credibility at the time.

And viable scenarios that also don't need the inclusion of phantom third man, hidden witnesses etc.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi JohnG

Not neccesarily-at all.
Maybe she didn't use her hands to break her fall.
Maybe she uses her hand that dosnt have the cashoo to break her fall.
Maybe she holds the cashoo in her thumb and forefinger (as described when found)and spreads the rest of her fingers to break the fall.

or maybe:
she has her throat cut during the initial struggle Schwartz witnesses and stumbles toward help-voices coming from the yard, but expires in the yard.

or-she breaks away from BS man and before her throat is cut, running for the yard and he catches her from behind.

or-she acquiesces to his desire to accompany him into the yard for sex after the initial struggle, taking out the cashoo then.


You see there are any number of possible scenarios that don't involve completely disregarding a viable witness in Schwartz, one who's story completely fit the circumstances of the night, including other witness sightings, comings and goings, and other witnesses suspects (peaked cap man). One who's story was never questioned as to credibility at the time.

And viable scenarios that also don't need the inclusion of phantom third man, hidden witnesses etc.

I totally agree, however Schwartz still can not have been Swansons Seaside witness... That requires re thinking

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

I totally agree, however Schwartz still can not have been Swansons Seaside witness... That requires re thinking

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff
Thanks. I think in all likelihood the seaside witness was lawende.

But why couldn't it have been Schwartz?

[curious4]

Stride's throat was cut in the yard and she was most probably lying on the ground. Both doctors agreed on this, but accept that it could possibly have been done while she was falling (if she fell). This was judging by the flow of blood and the killer's need to avoid being spattered with blood.

She was probably choked into unconsciousness in the street after Schwarz passed by, and this would be harder to do if she was lying on the ground, which is why I feel she must have been forced down into a sitting position (how else explain the pressure bruises on her shoulders/chest).

Another passerby (had there been one) would have thought she was drunk, limp and with head hanging down and that the man lifting her up and carrying her into the yard was taking care of her, so little risk there. She didn't drop the cachous because she didn't fall, and subsequently because of the hand-clenching reflex which comes with being choked.

There was only mud on the left side of her clothes from lying on her side. If she had fallen surely there would have been mud elsewhere - on her back, for example.

Best wishes
C4

[Wickerman]

I think that I demonstrated clearly that Brown could NOT have seen the flower from his POV.... From the moment he left the shop to passing the couple his line of sight could never have seen the flower as the man stood between him and the flower

Jeff, James Brown saw a man and a woman, it could have been any man and woman. If he had seen the flower on her right breast then that would make a good case for the woman being Stride.
Yes, his vantage point in walking east past the couple to his left, standing against the wall, means the location of the flower would be obscured.
This deficiency in his description does not allow us to just assume it "must" have been Stride, especially as another couple (or two?) were in the vicinity.
That's the point I was alluding to.

Again my reconstruction clearly deals with this point... Brown leaves the shop at the same time Schwartx turns into Berner street... It takes brown 2-3 secs to cross the road... It takes Schwartz 1-2 minutes to walk down to Durfield yard...thats what me reconstruction demonstrates

Brown just finished his supper when he heard the cry's for police. This was Diemschitz & Kozebrodsky running east along Fairclough St past his house shouting for the police. Which makes the time about 5 or more mins past one o'clock.
So, if Brown's estimate of 15 minutes is anything to go by, he passed that couple about 12:50.

One account has Brown leaving his house at 12:45, another has him passing the couple, on his way back home, at 12:45, which is it?

Look at what Diemschitz does after entering the yard with his cart, checking the body, looking inside for his wife, then telling the assembly in the club about the body in the yard, then returning to the yard and hovering over the body for a minute or two.
All this takes time, only then did he and Kozebrodski run down and along Fairclough St. shouting for the police.

These are the shouts that caught the attention of James Brown, so very likely sometime between 5-10 mins past one.
So if Brown says he heard the shouts about 15 minutes after seeing the couple, then he saw this couple after the time assigned to Schwartz, not before.

And yes I do respect the fact you have recreated the scene, so did Dave Yost about 15 years ago. People have been recreating these witness statements on and off for years, but much is still left open to debate.

[c.d.]

After rereading the last few pages it seems that people are meshing Schwartz's description and Stride's death as though they are one and the same. To the best of his knowledge, Stride was alive when Schwartz left the scene. How do we know this? Because he would have been questioned closely on this and Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer in his report.

Schwartz does not describe a murder, he simply states that he saw a woman being thrown to the ground. That's it.

And for the love of all that is holy, it is spelled c-a-c-h-o-u-s. Please, I beg of you, get this right.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Now, if Stride was grabbed from behind, I.e. by PC Smith's suspect, and brought to the ground, there would be no fall to break-because her assailant would be supporting her. In fact, she might even have had her throat cut before being brought to the ground, thereby rendered unconscious.

Simple really!

Yes, and reads very much like what Dr Blackwell suggested:

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

[Abby Normal]

After rereading the last few pages it seems that people are meshing Schwartz's description and Stride's death as though they are one and the same. To the best of his knowledge, Stride was alive when Schwartz left the scene. How do we know this? Because he would have been questioned closely on this and Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer in his report.

Schwartz does not describe a murder, he simply states that he saw a woman being thrown to the ground. That's it.

And for the love of all that is holy, it is spelled c-a-c-h-o-u-s. Please, I beg of you, get this right.

c.d.

cashooooooooo!

[DJA]

Nuts!