Packer and Schwartz

[S.Brett]

That is interesting.
It probably means nothing, but I notice one of the mugshots appears, if I read it correctly, to be of a 'Joseph Levy'

Hi Joshua,

The name "Joseph Levy" has escaped my notice.

I could not find, so far, a Joseph Levy in Wormwood Scrubs prison/1890. But there is a 1881 Index of Prisoners:

http://www.blacksheepancestors.com/uk/wormwood.shtml

Schwartz:

First man: "age, about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands."

Lawende:

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak" (2 October 1888/ Times)

"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." (19 October 1888/ Swanson)

"Young, about the middle height, with a small fair moustache, dressed in something like navy serge, and with a deerstalker's cap - that is, a cap with a peak both fore and aft." (Major Henry Smith)

Schwartz´s about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp... small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered... black cap with peak

in comparison with

Lawende´s about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in... having a small fair moustache...and a cap with a peak"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built... grey cloth cap with peak of same colour... round neck

There is a difference between 5/5 (Schwartz) and 5-7/8/9 (Lawende) in height and in the description of the cap, black (Schwartz) and grey (Lawende).

small brown moustache (Schwartz) and having a small fair moustache/fair fair moustache (Lawende)?

It seems to me that there were many men (about 30 years of age) with black or grey caps, wearing a small fair moustache at the time of the Ripper murders.

Schwartz stated: dark jacket and trousers
Lawende: pepper & salt colour loose jacket/ red neckerchief/ reddish handkerchief

Dark dress is not the same dress as pepper& salt dress with a red neckerchief but it was very dark...

And full face, broad shouldered (Schwartz) and medium built/ round neck (Lawende)?

Any idea?

Karsten.

[Joshua Rogan]

These Mugshots of Prisoners in London are Unusual Compared with the Standard of Prison Photography from the 1890s :

http://www.vintag.es/2015/12/these-mugshots-of-prisoners-in-london.html

That is interesting.
It probably means nothing, but I notice one of the mugshots appears, if I read it correctly, to be of a 'Joseph Levy'

[S.Brett]

A deerstalker, is not a hard felt hat.

Deerstalker.


Hard felt hat.


The official description appeared in the press on Oct. 1st.

The following description has been circulated by the police of a man said to have been seen with the woman Stride (murdered in Berner-street) during Saturday evening:- "Age twenty-eight. Slight. Height, 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance".

Then we have the typical sailors cap of the period.



Could we mistake either one for the other?

Hi Jon!

You might be interested in this...

On Facebook/ H Divison Crime Club- Steve Jessup, I saw some interesting photos of men/boys (and women) under the age of 21 wearing caps/hats. Here the link:

Early 20th Century U.K Criminal Faces – 25 Child Prisoner Portraits of North Shields in the 1900s

http://www.vintag.es/2016/03/early-20th-century-uk-criminal-faces-25.html

Schwartz: "black cap with peak"

Lawende´s "a cap with a peak", "a cloth cap on with a cloth peak," "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", "a cloth cap with a peak of the same material" and "with a deerstalker's cap - that is, a cap with a peak both fore and aft" (Major Smith/Lawende?)

With so many people wearing hats and caps there is a possibility that Schwartz and Lawende did not necessarily see the same suspect. Of course, these young boys wearing no moustaches (Schwartz: small brown moustache, Lawende: a small fair moustache, big moustache, a heavy moustache, inclining to be sandy and with a small fair moustache- Major Smith/ Lawende?-)

Criminals during the First World War – 35 Vintage Mugshots of North Shields in the 1910s, caps/hats and moustaches:

http://www.vintag.es/2016/01/criminals-during-first-world-war-35.html

Also of interest:

These Mugshots of Prisoners in London are Unusual Compared with the Standard of Prison Photography from the 1890s :

http://www.vintag.es/2015/12/these-mugshots-of-prisoners-in-london.html

Greetings, Karsten.

[Wickerman]

I suspect it is a composite.
We know Aaron Kozminski was 23 years old in 1888.
The Harry Cox suspect was: "..about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

- automatic suspect description!

[Scott Nelson]

Aaron Kozminski, 23 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with short, black, curly hair

Where did you get this from?

[Jeff Leahy]

To my last three posts I would like to say that it seems to me the police were possible interested in a young man with curly hair.

Cox.

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

Joseph Danny:

"28 December 1888... He was described as 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with a fair complexion, slight moustache and very curly hair."

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/49.html

"detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted" (December 1888)

It seems that shortly before Cox started the surveillance detectives have recently visited private lunatic asylums.

So I think that "Kosminski" was admitted to an private asylum not long after the Kelly murder.

If the Cox- suspect was Aaron Kozminski then he was similar to Joseph Danny (both young men):

Aaron Kozminski, 23 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with short, black, curly hair
Joseph Danny, 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, and very curly hair

In this connection, searching for Aaron Kozminski, Aaron Davis Cohen (David Cohen) could make sense as young (23 years of age) polish Jew wandering the streets. If Aaron Kozminski was the Ripper and if he was seen in Miller´s Court (and did not return to his shop) it is possible that he also wandering (and hiding) the streets before he was admitted to a private asylum in Surrey. Maybe he returned to his shop when he was discharged from the asylum. After this, Cox & his City Police colleagues watched "Kosminski" by day and night for months.

Hutchinson:

"Age about thirty four or thirty five; height five feet six inches; complexion pale; dark eyes and eyelashes; slight moustache curled up at each end and hair dark"

Hutchinson´s Astrachan Man showed the same height but was (apparently) older than Aaron Kozminski and Jospeh Danny... and with a moustache curled up but this is not curly hair.

As the various photographs have demonstrated age is about the hardest thing to determine in the dark...especially if someone has a mostasche, stubble and a cap with a peak

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

To my last three posts I would like to say that it seems to me the police were possible interested in a young man with curly hair.

Cox.

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

Joseph Danny:

"28 December 1888... He was described as 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with a fair complexion, slight moustache and very curly hair."

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/49.html

"detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted" (December 1888)

It seems that shortly before Cox started the surveillance detectives have recently visited private lunatic asylums.

So I think that "Kosminski" was admitted to an private asylum not long after the Kelly murder.

If the Cox- suspect was Aaron Kozminski then he was similar to Joseph Danny (both young men):

Aaron Kozminski, 23 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with short, black, curly hair
Joseph Danny, 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, and very curly hair

In this connection, searching for Aaron Kozminski, Aaron Davis Cohen (David Cohen) could make sense as young (23 years of age) polish Jew wandering the streets. If Aaron Kozminski was the Ripper and if he was seen in Miller´s Court (and did not return to his shop) it is possible that he also wandering (and hiding) the streets before he was admitted to a private asylum in Surrey. Maybe he returned to his shop when he was discharged from the asylum. After this, Cox & his City Police colleagues watched "Kosminski" by day and night for months.

Hutchinson:

"Age about thirty four or thirty five; height five feet six inches; complexion pale; dark eyes and eyelashes; slight moustache curled up at each end and hair dark"

Hutchinson´s Astrachan Man showed the same height but was (apparently) older than Aaron Kozminski and Jospeh Danny... and with a moustache curled up but this is not curly hair.

[lynn cates]

no brainer

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Swanson was Anderson's fixer so its a no brainer."

Agreed. But, as you say, for a different reason.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Because Anderson received the letter of introduction from Crawford not Macnaughten..."

Indeed. But surely Swanson never received it either?

"So Macnaughten doesn't know about that meeting..."

So it would appear. But Swanson did?

"Anderson and Monro decide on a course of action which is kept quiet because it's a 'Hot Potato'."

Of course, Monro did not receive the letter?

"The ID is never updated into the March 1889 file but kept as a separate report, the only other person who might have known something as the City police kept surveillance is SMITH."

So Smith--COL Police--is let in; and, Mac (Met) is left out?

Cheers.
LC

Swanson was Anderson fixer so its a no brainer..

Yep Smith must have known because the suspect was watched by City CID not the MET....and that creates costs and a paper trial

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

In my opinion, we can all forget about any witness who is known from before October 23rd, this is the date of the letter by Anderson where he claims the police "have not the slightest clue of any kind".

Therefore, Kozminski as a suspect only surfaced after that date. So there could have been another witness who was located by police after Oct. 23rd, who we are not aware of.

I agree to some extent Jon... especially if we reason the man described by Cox was Kozminski..

Then any of the witnesses must have failed to ID the suspect... and that is what Cox describes a man they follow (Presumably because they had to let him go) who they were unable to construct a case against

As you say Anderson still hasn't formed his opinion by aug/sept 1889

But its all simply explained by two separate unrelated events with the same suspect upto March 1889.

And a later event ID by a later witness, late 1890 early 1891

Yours jeff

[S.Brett]

This would also explain why he took a knife (against his sister?):

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

"The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

He was afraid of the Jewish witness.

[S.Brett]

Btw::

In this connection it makes sense that the witness with the "good view of the murder" is a Jew near Miller´s Court. If "Kosminski" thought that he was identified he could not go home. Remember: "And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London" (Swanson). What "Kosminski" did not know: The police had not found this important witness... but two years later... ."after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified" (Swanson) the police had found the Jewish witness..."And the result proved that our diagnosis was right on every point" (Anderson)

[S.Brett]

If "Kosminski" was a suspect in October 1888 what exactly happened around the 9 November 1888 (Kelly murder)? When Kelly was found how did the police behave in the matter of "Kosminski"? If the police watched him in October (Infirmary/his house or shop) where had he been around the 9 November? Cox said (if he watched "Kosminski"): "it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail". So what had happened? If the (City?) PC near Mitre Square did recognize (in height & build) "Kosminski" after the Double Event then it is possible that the City Police already watched "Kosminski" in October for a certain period. After the Kelly murder "Kosminski" would have been "the first choice" for an interview by the police or not? He took trophies from the Kelly crime scene. It should have been the best time hours after the murder to interview this suspect and to search his premises. In this case and in the matter of "Kosminski" it seems to me that the witness Hutchinson did not recognize "Kosminski" as the Astrachan Man (some time after the Kelly murder). I guess that "Kosminski" was not in his familiar environment when the Kelly murder took place. My guess is that the police did not know where he was staying at the time of the Kelly murder. Maybe, he "lived" on the street and had found a sort of hiding place. This could possible also explain why the police "detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted" in December 1888. There was an incident after the Farmer attack on the morning of the 22 November 1888. Imagine that "Kosminski" s sister found his brother in the East End Streets with the end that he was taken into custody and after he was released the family brought him to an infirmary and further to an (private) asylum in Surrey then it made sense for the detectives to visit all the registered private lunatic asylums.

[lynn cates]

reread

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

"It's reasonable speculation given what Cox says."

Cox identifies Kosminski? Must reread.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

guesses

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"But we know Anderson starts his theory in 1892 'A maniac reveling in blood'

Macnaughten knows little about Kozminski, only the office rumours until he writes his memo and discovers the March 1889 file. Almost two years later 1894 when the Sun suggests Cutbush"

But these are just guesses?

Cheers.
LC