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  • When considering whether it was possible for Elizabeth Stride to hang on to the packet of cashous whilst being assaulted by BS man the following might be of interest.

    Evening Express 27th June 1893

    HORRIBLE MURDER IN LONDON. A WOMAN'S THROAT CUT. SIMILARITY TO THE RIPPER SCARE. AN ARREST. Another mysterious murder with its usual accompaniment the escape of the murderer has to be added to the growing total of Metropolitan tragedies. In some respects, indeed, the news which sent a thrill of horror through Rotherhithe early on Sunday morning resembles those fiendish crimes that have made Whitechapel a byword and reproach to the annals of criminal history. The victim is a woman living apart from her husband the time of the murder was the early hours of the morning; and the wound was the same ghastly gash which characterised the Ripper atrocities. to the spot near the Rotherhithe New-road, where the murder was committed, is a public-house called the Sir Garnet Wolseley, at the bad: of which are two streets known as Westlake street and Silverlock street. A few minutes after the public-house had closed on Saturday night three screams were heard. DISCOVERY OF THE CRIME. One account says no heed was taken of them, as they were regarded merely as the outcome of a street disturbance. Another report describes them as piercing," and states that so loud were they that the inhabitants of the neighbouring houses rushed out greatly alarmed, and at once commenced a search of the locality. One of the searchers noticed a dark object lying outside No. 51, Silverlock street, and, on going towards it, discovered a woman lying prostrate in a pool of blood. On the arrival of a constable with a bull's-eye lantern a horrible sight was revealed. It was seen that the woman's head was as nearly as possible severed from the trunk, while her clothing was saturated with blood, streams of which were dearly visible on the pavement. The woman was at once recognised as a character well known in the locality, going by the name of Jenny Hicks. She is supposed to be about 45 years of age.When found she was clutching a latchkey in her right hand, while wedged between the fingers was a sixpenny piece and a cork.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

      It isn't often that we hear from the silent majority, but yes you nailed it right on the head. I also find it odd that anyone who believes "the witness" is then labeled naive, but in all cases the accusations thrown at these same witnesses by the vocal minority have no foundation in fact.
      Unbelievable! but hey, this is Casebook, the yellowbrick road of Ripperology..
      Surely the first position is that the witness told the truth?

      If someone wishes to state otherwise, it is their prerogative to do so?

      But the honess is up to them to make or prove that point?

      Yours Jef

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
        Surely the first position is that the witness told the truth?

        If someone wishes to state otherwise, it is their prerogative to do so?

        But the honess is up to them to make or prove that point?

        Yours Jef
        And so it should be Jeff.
        But, rather than amend the theory to fit the witness statement, it is easier to dismiss the witness as a liar, and preserve the theory intact, with all its faults ignored.

        Only when we have conflicting evidence should one source be called into question. Without another opinion on the subject we should be bound to give the witness statement due consideration free of bias.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Observer View Post
          .... going by the name of Jenny Hicks. She is supposed to be about 45 years of age.When found she was clutching a latchkey in her right hand, while wedged between the fingers was a sixpenny piece and a cork.
          Excellent find, Obs!
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Hi Jon

            Thank Natasha, it was she who discovered this article.

            You will notice that the poor womans dress was saturated with blood, in my opinion it's highly likely she was cut whilst standing, or as she was forced to the ground. The assault was not witnessed of course, so it's anybodys guess as to the extent she was dragged about prior to the slash being administered. Regardless, incredibly, she hung on to a key, a sixpence, and a cork.

            Regards

            Observer

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Observer View Post
              Hi Jon

              Thank Natasha, it was she who discovered this article.

              You will notice that the poor womans dress was saturated with blood, in my opinion it's highly likely she was cut whilst standing, or as she was forced to the ground. The assault was not witnessed of course, so it's anybodys guess as to the extent she was dragged about prior to the slash being administered. Regardless, incredibly, she hung on to a key, a sixpence, and a cork.

              Regards

              Observer
              But a key, a sixpence, and a cork can all hit the ground without breaking or spilling unlike a packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

              c.d.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                Hello Packers

                Nice to be crossing swords again :-). Maxwell's testimony was completely contrary to all of the other witnesses, for a start. And if she last saw her at nine, away from her room, how could there have been time for her, unseen, to pick up a new client, for him to murder her and complete all of the mutilations and escape in broad daylight, if not covered in blood, at least bloodstained?

                If Hutchinson didn't exist Abberline must have looked a complete idiot shepherding the invisible man round the market the day after.

                Best wishes
                C4
                Hi C4
                Yep, how boring would life be without different opinions
                Nooooooooo....maxwell's testimony does not contradict anyone else's testimony...only TOD causes the confusion.
                The victim was long dead by 9.... Maxwell was a solid witness..... Barnett?? Not so really, blaming some speech impediment, nerves maybe??
                Trusting Barnett's ID is a mistake in my view
                This walk around the market was confirmed by which third party?
                You can lead a horse to water.....

                Comment


                • "Thanks, it's nice to be in accord! To be honest, until I considered the cachous argument I'd never really doubted Schwartz's evidence. However, I must admit that, considering matters objectively, you make a very persuasive counter argument."

                  Hello John G,

                  And what evidence would that be? That he saw a woman being thrown to the ground? You seem to be saying that if Schwartz's evidence can be shown to be inconsistent with Stride's death that it implies he was lying. But the simple fact (which keeps getting lost on this thread) is that he never said anything about witnessing her death. To the best of his knowledge, Stride is still alive when Schwartz leaves the scene.

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                    But a key, a sixpence, and a cork can all hit the ground without breaking or spilling unlike a packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

                    c.d.
                    You have me at a loss cd, can you explain further?

                    Comment


                    • Hello Observer,

                      I'm not talking about clutching something in death. I am talking about Stride being thrown to the ground as witnessed by Schwartz.

                      Any one of those three objects can hit the ground and be none the worse for wear. The same would apply if one exerted pressure on them while held in the hand in attempting to get up from the fall. They would be unharmed if held in the hand while fending someone off who was attempting to drag them. They are all hard, solid objects. The cachous were only wrapped in tissue paper. Unlike those other objects, a little bit of stress on the tissue paper is going to make it rip and the cachous scatter.

                      Hope that helps.

                      c.d.

                      Comment


                      • This is how it works Gwyneth, you select an unsourced, unreferenced & uncorroborated article written to cause a stir among the readers.
                        Except that in the minds of the rational, a simple report concerning the ditching of yet another bogus "witness" is about as unsensational as it is possible to get; the very antithesis of a "stir", devoid of any credible reason to fabricate the claim, and thoroughly supported by all other evidence.

                        I suggested that C4 might wish to consult the relevant threads in order to avoid derailing a discussion that is supposed to be about witnesses from the Stride murder, and it seems she acquiesced to that suggestion, thus drawing that particular issue to an amicable close.

                        It would be a real shame if someone with a complete fixation with a particular subject then decided to ruin it with inflammatory comments that don't relate to Packer and Schwartz, and are instead pursuant to that particular subject; that fixation.

                        Back on topic, then, unless...?
                        Last edited by Ben; 10-26-2015, 04:47 PM.

                        Comment


                        • 'He turned her round".I suggest she twisted away of her own accord,and in doing so slipped to her knees.
                          I also suggest the descriptions of the two persons given by Schwartz,could have been the result of suggestions made by those questioning Schwartz,to which he or the interpreter responded "Could be".
                          While the statement of Schwartz may not be reliable as to detail,on the whole I believe he did witness a disturbance between Stride and BS,and did see another male at the corner of Berner and Fairclough street.

                          Comment


                          • kneeling

                            Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

                            "Well no, before pushing her down. And I don't believe she would have dropped the cachous if pushed/forced down to her knees."

                            But surely she is making some rather exaggerated hand/arm movements whilst being pushed down and not just passively assuming a kneeling position?

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • evidence

                              Hello John.

                              "it's merely a scenario that fits the physical possibility test, unlike Schwartz's evidence!"

                              Absolutely. If Schwartz is telling the truth, it is in SPITE of the evidence.

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment


                              • 2 October

                                Hello Abby. Thanks.

                                This is from "The Star" for 2 October.

                                "In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts."

                                Cheers.
                                LC

                                Comment

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