Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Because Anderson received the letter of introduction from Crawford not Macnaughten..."

Indeed. But surely Swanson never received it either?

"So Macnaughten doesn't know about that meeting..."

So it would appear. But Swanson did?

"Anderson and Monro decide on a course of action which is kept quiet because it's a 'Hot Potato'."

Of course, Monro did not receive the letter?

"The ID is never updated into the March 1889 file but kept as a separate report, the only other person who might have known something as the City police kept surveillance is SMITH."

So Smith--COL Police--is let in; and, Mac (Met) is left out?

Cheers.
LC

Swanson was Anderson fixer so its a no brainer..

Yep Smith must have known because the suspect was watched by City CID not the MET....and that creates costs and a paper trial

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

no brainer

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Swanson was Anderson's fixer so its a no brainer."

Agreed. But, as you say, for a different reason.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

To my last three posts I would like to say that it seems to me the police were possible interested in a young man with curly hair.

Cox.

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

Joseph Danny:

"28 December 1888... He was described as 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with a fair complexion, slight moustache and very curly hair."

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/49.html

"detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted" (December 1888)

It seems that shortly before Cox started the surveillance detectives have recently visited private lunatic asylums.

So I think that "Kosminski" was admitted to an private asylum not long after the Kelly murder.

If the Cox- suspect was Aaron Kozminski then he was similar to Joseph Danny (both young men):

Aaron Kozminski, 23 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with short, black, curly hair
Joseph Danny, 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, and very curly hair

In this connection, searching for Aaron Kozminski, Aaron Davis Cohen (David Cohen) could make sense as young (23 years of age) polish Jew wandering the streets. If Aaron Kozminski was the Ripper and if he was seen in Miller´s Court (and did not return to his shop) it is possible that he also wandering (and hiding) the streets before he was admitted to a private asylum in Surrey. Maybe he returned to his shop when he was discharged from the asylum. After this, Cox & his City Police colleagues watched "Kosminski" by day and night for months.

Hutchinson:

"Age about thirty four or thirty five; height five feet six inches; complexion pale; dark eyes and eyelashes; slight moustache curled up at each end and hair dark"

Hutchinson´s Astrachan Man showed the same height but was (apparently) older than Aaron Kozminski and Jospeh Danny... and with a moustache curled up but this is not curly hair.

[Jeff Leahy]

To my last three posts I would like to say that it seems to me the police were possible interested in a young man with curly hair.

Cox.

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

Joseph Danny:

"28 December 1888... He was described as 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with a fair complexion, slight moustache and very curly hair."

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/49.html

"detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted" (December 1888)

It seems that shortly before Cox started the surveillance detectives have recently visited private lunatic asylums.

So I think that "Kosminski" was admitted to an private asylum not long after the Kelly murder.

If the Cox- suspect was Aaron Kozminski then he was similar to Joseph Danny (both young men):

Aaron Kozminski, 23 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with short, black, curly hair
Joseph Danny, 20 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, and very curly hair

In this connection, searching for Aaron Kozminski, Aaron Davis Cohen (David Cohen) could make sense as young (23 years of age) polish Jew wandering the streets. If Aaron Kozminski was the Ripper and if he was seen in Miller´s Court (and did not return to his shop) it is possible that he also wandering (and hiding) the streets before he was admitted to a private asylum in Surrey. Maybe he returned to his shop when he was discharged from the asylum. After this, Cox & his City Police colleagues watched "Kosminski" by day and night for months.

Hutchinson:

"Age about thirty four or thirty five; height five feet six inches; complexion pale; dark eyes and eyelashes; slight moustache curled up at each end and hair dark"

Hutchinson´s Astrachan Man showed the same height but was (apparently) older than Aaron Kozminski and Jospeh Danny... and with a moustache curled up but this is not curly hair.

As the various photographs have demonstrated age is about the hardest thing to determine in the dark...especially if someone has a mostasche, stubble and a cap with a peak

Yours Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Aaron Kozminski, 23 years of age, 5ft 6" tall, with short, black, curly hair

Where did you get this from?

[Wickerman]

I suspect it is a composite.
We know Aaron Kozminski was 23 years old in 1888.
The Harry Cox suspect was: "..about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

- automatic suspect description!

[S.Brett]

A deerstalker, is not a hard felt hat.

Deerstalker.


Hard felt hat.


The official description appeared in the press on Oct. 1st.

The following description has been circulated by the police of a man said to have been seen with the woman Stride (murdered in Berner-street) during Saturday evening:- "Age twenty-eight. Slight. Height, 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance".

Then we have the typical sailors cap of the period.



Could we mistake either one for the other?

Hi Jon!

You might be interested in this...

On Facebook/ H Divison Crime Club- Steve Jessup, I saw some interesting photos of men/boys (and women) under the age of 21 wearing caps/hats. Here the link:

Early 20th Century U.K Criminal Faces – 25 Child Prisoner Portraits of North Shields in the 1900s

http://www.vintag.es/2016/03/early-20th-century-uk-criminal-faces-25.html

Schwartz: "black cap with peak"

Lawende´s "a cap with a peak", "a cloth cap on with a cloth peak," "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", "a cloth cap with a peak of the same material" and "with a deerstalker's cap - that is, a cap with a peak both fore and aft" (Major Smith/Lawende?)

With so many people wearing hats and caps there is a possibility that Schwartz and Lawende did not necessarily see the same suspect. Of course, these young boys wearing no moustaches (Schwartz: small brown moustache, Lawende: a small fair moustache, big moustache, a heavy moustache, inclining to be sandy and with a small fair moustache- Major Smith/ Lawende?-)

Criminals during the First World War – 35 Vintage Mugshots of North Shields in the 1910s, caps/hats and moustaches:

http://www.vintag.es/2016/01/criminals-during-first-world-war-35.html

Also of interest:

These Mugshots of Prisoners in London are Unusual Compared with the Standard of Prison Photography from the 1890s :

http://www.vintag.es/2015/12/these-mugshots-of-prisoners-in-london.html

Greetings, Karsten.

[Joshua Rogan]

These Mugshots of Prisoners in London are Unusual Compared with the Standard of Prison Photography from the 1890s :

http://www.vintag.es/2015/12/these-mugshots-of-prisoners-in-london.html

That is interesting.
It probably means nothing, but I notice one of the mugshots appears, if I read it correctly, to be of a 'Joseph Levy'

[S.Brett]

That is interesting.
It probably means nothing, but I notice one of the mugshots appears, if I read it correctly, to be of a 'Joseph Levy'

Hi Joshua,

The name "Joseph Levy" has escaped my notice.

I could not find, so far, a Joseph Levy in Wormwood Scrubs prison/1890. But there is a 1881 Index of Prisoners:

http://www.blacksheepancestors.com/uk/wormwood.shtml

Schwartz:

First man: "age, about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands."

Lawende:

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak" (2 October 1888/ Times)

"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." (19 October 1888/ Swanson)

"Young, about the middle height, with a small fair moustache, dressed in something like navy serge, and with a deerstalker's cap - that is, a cap with a peak both fore and aft." (Major Henry Smith)

Schwartz´s about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp... small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered... black cap with peak

in comparison with

Lawende´s about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in... having a small fair moustache...and a cap with a peak"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built... grey cloth cap with peak of same colour... round neck

There is a difference between 5/5 (Schwartz) and 5-7/8/9 (Lawende) in height and in the description of the cap, black (Schwartz) and grey (Lawende).

small brown moustache (Schwartz) and having a small fair moustache/fair fair moustache (Lawende)?

It seems to me that there were many men (about 30 years of age) with black or grey caps, wearing a small fair moustache at the time of the Ripper murders.

Schwartz stated: dark jacket and trousers
Lawende: pepper & salt colour loose jacket/ red neckerchief/ reddish handkerchief

Dark dress is not the same dress as pepper& salt dress with a red neckerchief but it was very dark...

And full face, broad shouldered (Schwartz) and medium built/ round neck (Lawende)?

Any idea?

Karsten.