Packer and Schwartz

[harry]

Jeff,
In those times,the use of coal fires caused a slight haze,even on the best of days,and the weather that night would have meant the haze had difficulty in reaching a higher atmosphere.
Yes you are correct that the flower would have been hidden from Brown's view.Now if Stride could make it as far as the yard entrance before BS and Schwartz arrived,the companion could make it as far as the corner.
What is to say that Stride was not just passing the gateway,when the altercation happened,having left Fairclough Street just moments before.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

Actually, I would not take you for the spelling police--it's "jibe," not "jive." (heh-heh)

Yes, BS need not kill her--just shove her. In which case the cachous would come out later.

Of course that, too, involves difficulties.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You got me on this one. I am sooooo embarrassed. Don't know how I came up with jive. However -- (per Wiktionary, whatever that is) "Jibe" and "jive" have been used interchangeably in the U.S. to indicate the concept "to agree or accord." While one recent dictionary accepts this usage of "jive," most sources consider it to be in error.

At least I spelled jive correctly.

c.d.

[John G]

Hello John

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

According to my favourite pathologist the ligature mark may be absent if a soft ligature were used. Also the throat cutting may have disguised it to a certain extent.

Don't think I said her throat was cut on the pavement but that he dragged her or carried her into the yard.

Thanks for the good wishes!

C4

Hello C4,

I've just consulted Dr Biggs, my favourite pathologist! Yes, strangulation usually leaves bruises but not necessarily,so I guess it's a question of balance of probability on this issue!

Of course, suffocation would be another possibility. Nonetheless, this still doesn't explain how she held on to the cachous, either during the assault- during which, she's being pulled, spun and,ultimately thrown to the ground- or whilst being dragged/carried into the yard. It also doesn't explain the lack of damage/creasing to the dress, the flower remaining intact, or lack of bruising, grazing or damage to the skin of any kind.

[John G]

no.
the flower is smaller and on the chest harder to see than a hat large, on the head that can be seen from any angle.

But a bright flower is likely to stand out more than a dark hat. Moreover, PC Smith noticed the flower from a casual observation on the opposite side of the street. But, apparently, Schwartz didn't, despite a significantly longer observation-and this is witness who was able to describe the colour of the man's hair!

Moreover, as the police report points out there are significant differences of opinion, regarding the description of the man, between Schwartz and PC Smith, and "serious differences in the description of dress". So "it is rendered doubtful whether they are describing the same man.

This being the case, we're left with the coincidence of Stride coming into contact with two different men in the space of just a few minutes. Moreover, why did she cross the road and stand alone in the gateway of the club? This makes no sense considering the club Yard was not known to be used for purposes of solicitation, and I would have thought that it would be a far less likely option on the night of a busy club meeting

Perhaps significantly, Stride had not been seen by herself until this time (if Schwartz is to be believed). That hardly seems like the conduct of a prostitute patrolling her "patch".

[lynn cates]

detective

Hello Jeff.

"If the man seen by PC Smith was with Stride following PC smith departure and then in the Alleyway... that means Eagle walked straight passed them... Is that possible?

Also the parcel also concerns me, I mean does he say to his victim, do you mind waiting a minute before I attack you I need to un-wrap a present?"

Whoa ho! Now we're asking the right kind of questions. Now THIS is real detective work.

Kudos.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

apron

Hello (again) Jeff.

"Surely Jack conceals his knife in side coat pocket?"

Well, when Polly was killed, I think they were affixed to Jacob's leather butcher's apron. But he changed clothes between Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Aqui

Hello S Brett. Thanks.

Try here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95rqNxxbiM

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello (again) S Brett. Thanks.

Have you read the Lowenheim/Wirtkovsky story? Interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello Abby,

This "fairy tale" (as you put it) of another killer besides the B.S. man was considered a possibility by Swanson.

As for people holding on to things in death, as has been stated over and over in these Stride threads, the cachous argument relates to Stride holding on to the cachous after being thrown to the ground as witnessed by Schwartz. It also relates to her holding out her hands to push herself upright and to her holding on to them if she attempted to fight off the B.S. man if he was dragging her to her death. The argument DOES NOT relate to her holding on to them in death so any evidence from forensic scientists in that regard is moot.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

Excellent post, and one I totally agree with.

[lynn cates]

video

Hello Karsten (Hope I got that right). Thanks.

Well, it certainly fits the medical evidence.

If wrong, perhaps someone will make a competing video?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

funny

Hello John.

"But isn't it funny how many witnesses noticed the peak cap, but not Stride wearing a flower?"

Yes, quite funny that.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

flexible

Hello (again) John. Thanks.

Of course, the chap behind may or may not have been noticed by Liz. I am flexible here.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

I dont object Harry. Clearly the models were made lighter because they wouldn't have illustrated very much had they been that dark.

That said a TV camera is a very poor substitute for human eye sight, which can ajust surprisingly well in low light conditions.

It certainly wasn't foggy on the night of the murders.

Berner street itself was well lite. All the gaslights in Jakes models were accurately researched and in the correct positions..

So the biggest problems would be eye sight adjusting from the street lighting into the darkness of the yard... Which we know was dark...

My biggest concern is still Morris Eagle 12.40 am

If the man seen by PC Smith was with Stride following PC smith departure and then in the Alleyway... that means Eagle walked straight passed them... Is that possible?

Also the parcel also concerns me, I mean does he say to his victim, do you mind waiting a minute before i attack you I need to un-wrap a present?

And surely if our man is Aron Cohen (We'll call him that because Kozminski is hard to spell) Then surely he still has time to go home unwrap his parcel and come back... Making it possible for Aron Cohen and BSM to be one and the same person?

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff

Yes, according to Louis D. He said that it would have been possible to miss the body, for instance, if you walked down the centre of the yard-I believe he stated that he may have missed it if his pony hadn't shied.

As for the parcel, happily one of my favourite suspects, Francis Thompson, used to carry a parcel around with him-they contained his books. Sorry, couldn't resist!

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello CD.

"And before people start telling their experiences of holding on to something during a fall, we need to keep in mind that these were little mints wrapped in tissue paper. Now that is different from say a woman falling and holding on to her purse since the purse itself absorbs the blow and does not break. The same if someone were holding a beer can. That is not going to break apart. But the cachous in the paper were very flimsy and could be scattered quite easily. So it is definitely not a case of one size fits all."

Bingo, my lad.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

shuckin' the jive

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

Well, when you wrote "jive," perhaps you were thinking of Israel's story? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC