Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,
In those times,the use of coal fires caused a slight haze,even on the best of days,and the weather that night would have meant the haze had difficulty in reaching a higher atmosphere.

Yes accepted. People today forget what London was once like. As a child I went to London regularly with my Aunt and my Nan lived in Croydon. The London yellow bricks of houses and buildings were black with shoot dust.. My first memory of the Houses of Parliament were that they were black, imagine my surprise years later when they'd cleaned up the air to discover they were a completely different colour.

So i'd imagine that the brickwork was far sootier in 1888.

Somewhere I remember something about the 'rain had stopped the air was fresh' One of the amazing programs in Cinema 4D is that the sun and stars can be positioned in its precise historical location, not that its relative here but some might be interested in Jakes Models...A new mix of the murder locations went in the post yesterday to Jon Rees for next weeks The Murders and Mystery of Jack the Ripper..Jon Rees lecture in Swansea. Plug plug.

Yes you are correct that the flower would have been hidden from Brown's view.Now if Stride could make it as far as the yard entrance before BS and Schwartz arrived,the companion could make it as far as the corner.
What is to say that Stride was not just passing the gateway,when the altercation happened,having left Fairclough Street just moments before.

Its certainly a possibility I have considered. It would leave a man just out of sight in Farclough Street, if he heres the commotion and comes to look he will bump into Schwartz who has just crossed the road

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Karsten (Hope I got that right). Thanks.

Well, it certainly fits the medical evidence.

If wrong, perhaps someone will make a competing video?

Cheers.
LC

Unfortunately my model has a broken her back and three collapsed vertibrae...but we will be back on the trail when she is fixed... Got half way to Guys on Wednesday and they had lost her notes...

This is what happens when you play Emma Smith

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Abby,

This "fairy tale" (as you put it) of another killer besides the B.S. man was considered a possibility by Swanson.

As for people holding on to things in death, as has been stated over and over in these Stride threads, the cachous argument relates to Stride holding on to the cachous after being thrown to the ground as witnessed by Schwartz. It also relates to her holding out her hands to push herself upright and to her holding on to them if she attempted to fight off the B.S. man if he was dragging her to her death. The argument DOES NOT relate to her holding on to them in death so any evidence from forensic scientists in that regard is moot.

c.d.

Hi CD

Just to support what you are saying here.... If Stride was already unconscious she wouldn't put out her hands to break her fall. Anyone who has ever fainted, and I've only ever done so twice... Knows you fall pretty heavy

Stride is described as pale and white consistent with Fainting, or having the blood supply to the brain cut by pressure

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

P.C. Smith:

You are right, Jon.

Swanson report 19 October:

From enquiries made it was found that at:-
12.35 a.m.30th P.C. 452H Smith saw a man and woman the latter with a red rose talking in Berner Street, this P.C. on seeing the body identified it as being that of the woman whom he had seen & he thus describes the man as age about 28. ht. 5ft. 7in: comp. dark, small dark moustache, dress black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, white collar & tie.

The description of the man seen by the P.C. was circulated amongst Police by wire, & by authority of Commissioner it was also given to the press. On the evening of 30th the man Schwartz gave the description of the man he had seen ten minutes later than the P.C. and it was circulated by wire. It will be observed that following for differences of opinion between the P.C. and Schwartz as to apparent age & height of the man each saw with the woman whose body they both identified there are serious differences in the description of dress:- thus the P.C. describes the dress of the man whom he saw as black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, while Schwartz describes the dress of the man he saw as dark jacket black cap with peak, so that it is at least rendered doubtful whether they are describing the same man. If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it, it follows if they are describing different men that the man Schwartz saw & described is the more probable of the two to be the murderer, for a quarter of an hour afterwards the body is found murdered. At the same time account must be taken of the fact that the throat only of the victim was cut in this instance which measured by time, considering meeting (if the man other than Schwartz saw) the time for the agreement & murderous action would I think be a question of so many minutes, five at least, ten at most, so that I respectfully submit it is not clearly proved that the man that Schwartz saw is the murderer, although it is clearly the more probable of the two.("This is rather confused: If the man whom the P.C. saw is not the same as the man whom Schwartz saw at 12.45 then it is clearly more probable that the man whom Schwartz saw was the murderer, because Schwartz saw his man a quarter of an hour later than the P.C. But I understand the Inspector to suggest that Schwartz´man need not have been the murderer. True only 15 minutes elapsed between 12.45 when Schwartz saw the man 1,0 when the woman was found murdered on the same spot. But the suggestion is that Schwartz´man may have left her, she being a prostitute then accosted or was accosted by another man, & there was time enough for this to take place & for this other man to murder her before 1,0. The Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man whom Schwartz saw on the other side of the street & who followed Schwartz.)

... I understand from City Police that Mr. Lewin (sic-Lawende)... the description is much nearer to that given by Schwartz than to that given by the P.C.

Warren, 6 November 1888:

…the evidence given by Schwartz at the inquest in Elizabeth Stride´s case…

P.C. Smith:

Okay, there are two descriptions (Press and inquest).

Is it possible that Schwartz was at the inquest in secret? Is it possible that PC Smith had to change his description of the man he had seen for the Stride- inquest? Is it possible that Pipeman was found?

Lawende stated: dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with a peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor. (Swanson)

Schwartz´s BS and the cap and Lawende´s round neck and the cap = OK

Schwartz:

dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak

Lawende:

dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with a peak of same colour

= OK it is possible that Lawende had “a little more light”

But Schwartz did not say:

reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, appearance of a sailor

And PC Smith:

white collar & tie

white collar & tie & reddish handkerchief tied in a knot are quite different…

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Hello (again) S Brett. Thanks.

Have you read the Lowenheim/Wirtkovsky story? Interesting.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Karsten (Hope I got that right). Thanks.

Well, it certainly fits the medical evidence.

If wrong, perhaps someone will make a competing video?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, Karsten.

I always read your posts with interest and pleasure.

To: Lowenheim/Wirtkovsky story

I am really interested in this story. Currently I try to find out more about it. I am in contact with someone who could help. I do not expect much... but the attempt is worth it...

Karsten.

[John G]

Hi CD

Just to support what you are saying here.... If Stride was already unconscious she wouldn't put out her hands to break her fall. Anyone who has ever fainted, and I've only ever done so twice... Knows you fall pretty heavy

Stride is described as pale and white consistent with Fainting, or having the blood supply to the brain cut by pressure

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

But that isn't what Schwartz describes. And I think the idea that BS man pulled Stride towards the street, spun her around, and threw her to the ground, whilst gripping a small scarf is somewhat far-fetched. Moreover, how did Stride manage to scream three times if she was unconscious? I'm not sure that's physically possible!

This is the major problem I keep referring to: for Schwartz's evidence to be even remotely consistent with the facts it has to be virtually re-written and substituted for extreme and highly implausible scenarios.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

But that isn't what Schwartz describes. And I think the idea that BS man pulled Stride towards the street, spun her around, and threw her to the ground, whilst gripping a small scarf is somewhat far-fetched. Moreover, how did Stride manage to scream three times if she was unconscious? I'm not sure that's physically possible!

This is the major problem I keep referring to: for Schwartz's evidence to be even remotely consistent with the facts it has to be virtually re-written and substituted for extreme and highly implausible scenarios.

Well in my scenario BSM and Stride are facing each other arguing, cachous in her left hand... Stride runs to her left to get away, only route into the yard.

BSM grabs her left arm pushing it up tight behind her back, while simultaneously grabbing the scarf around her neck which he pulls tight, she screams three times, the force of the screams muffled by the choking scarf.

It appears as if she is pulled back into the street as he pulls the scarf tight

Stride faints and he lowers her to the ground by the scarf, her arm still behind her back...her drops to the pathway and BSM turns and shouts 'Lipski' to Schwartz. who by this time has reached the other side of the street

Note in my version Schwartz crosses the road while the assault is taking place

On crossing to the other side, he see's the man previously with Stride come out of fairclough street and frightened crosses the road again towards the pub...this places 180 degree escape between BSM and Pipeman.

Alos scared pieman runs same direction past pub and down fairclough street, both men being out of sight of Dutfield yard the instant they pass the pub so don't see what happens next

BSM grabs Strides Scarf and pulls her into the yard twisting her slightly as she slides over the slats. In the same movement he takes the knife from his pocket with his free hand and slits her throat.

[John G]

Well in my scenario BSM and Stride are facing each other arguing, cachous in her left hand... Stride runs to her left to get away, only route into the yard.

BSM grabs her left arm pushing it up tight behind her back, while simultaneously grabbing the scarf around her neck which he pulls tight, she screams three times, the force of the screams muffled by the choking scarf.

It appears as if she is pulled back into the street as he pulls the scarf tight

Stride faints and he lowers her to the ground by the scarf, her arm still behind her back...her drops to the pathway and BSM turns and shouts 'Lipski' to Schwartz. who by this time has reached the other side of the street

Note in my version Schwartz crosses the road while the assault is taking place

On crossing to the other side, he see's the man previously with Stride come out of fairclough street and frightened crosses the road again towards the pub...this places 180 degree escape between BSM and Pipeman.

Alos scared pieman runs same direction past pub and down fairclough street, both men being out of sight of Dutfield yard the instant they pass the pub so don't see what happens next

BSM grabs Strides Scarf and pulls her into the yard twisting her slightly as she slides over the slats. In the same movement he takes the knife from his pocket with his free hand and slits her throat.

Hello Jeff,

But this isn't what Schwartz describes. He makes no mention of Stride being grabbed by a scarf, which would have been fairly obvious, and he says that she screamed after she was thrown onto the footway. And how could she be rendered unconscious so quickly, I.e. in the brief time it took to pull Stride into the street and throw her to the ground? Where does Schwartz mention Stride running away? Where does Schwartz mention Stride having her arm pushed tight behind her back? How could he have mistaken a chocking sound for a scream, the sounds are radically different? In fact a choking sound is highly distinctive. Why does he say she screamed three times? This is not at all compatible with someone choking and struggling for breath? Unconsciousness from the application of a ligature takes around 10-15 seconds, but what Schwartz saw didn't seem to take anything like that amount of time. And as Stride seemed to be struggling, it may have taken longer. See:
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html. Moreover, a ligature would normally leave a characteristic impression, which was entirely absent.

Your version also requires Stride to be dragged into the yard via a small scarf, something I would have thought all but impossible. Moreover, why no damage to the dress? Why no bruising to the body? Why no grazing or friction burns? Why no damage to the skin of any kind?

[Jon Guy]

How could he have mistaken a chocking sound for a scream, the sounds are radically different?

Hi John

How did Schwartz describe those screams ?

[John G]

Hi John

How did Schwartz describe those screams ?

Hi Jon,

Well he certainly didn't describe the streams as choking sounds! That's part of the problem:for Schwartz's evidence to make any sense at all it needs to virtually re-written. He certainly did not say that Stride was strangled with a scarf and there is zero evidence for this.

And note how observant Schwartz seemed to be with other parts of his evidence. Not just the descriptions, but the fact that BS man attempted to pull Stride into the street, the fact that she was turned round, and finally thrown on to the footway. Unless he was making all this up, which he may well have been, there couldn't be anything wrong with his line of vision.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

Well he certainly didn't describe the streams as choking sounds! .

This is how Schwartz describes the screams:
the woman screamed three times, but not loudly

Consistent with someone having a silk scarf pulled tightly around their throat.

He certainly did not say that Stride was strangled with a scarf and there is zero evidence for this.

Well she was wearing a silk scarf, John and the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight

[curious4]

Hello C4,

I've just consulted Dr Biggs, my favourite pathologist! Yes, strangulation usually leaves bruises but not necessarily,so I guess it's a question of balance of probability on this issue!

Of course, suffocation would be another possibility. Nonetheless, this still doesn't explain how she held on to the cachous, either during the assault- during which, she's being pulled, spun and,ultimately thrown to the ground- or whilst being dragged/carried into the yard. It also doesn't explain the lack of damage/creasing to the dress, the flower remaining intact, or lack of bruising, grazing or damage to the skin of any kind.

Hello John

Just been reading though things again and what caught my attention were the bruises on her shoulders, consistent with her being forced down, I believe, into a sitting position, prior to the garroting which would cause her to lose consciousness very quickly. "The body looked as though it had been laid down quietly" - she was very slight, apparently, so an easy thing to just pick her up when she was insensible, and place her in a suitable position. Rendered unconscious very quickly, picked up and places where he wanted her. A reason for first pushing her down could be that the killer was not much taller and it was easier to throttle her from above (more control).

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Hello Jeff,

But that isn't what Schwartz describes. And I think the idea that BS man pulled Stride towards the street, spun her around, and threw her to the ground, whilst gripping a small scarf is somewhat far-fetched. Moreover, how did Stride manage to scream three times if she was unconscious? I'm not sure that's physically possible!

This is the major problem I keep referring to: for Schwartz's evidence to be even remotely consistent with the facts it has to be virtually re-written and substituted for extreme and highly implausible scenarios.

Not so small. Anything smaller would called a pocket handerchief. Think woman's head scarf as worn by Her Gracious Majesty on country rambles :-).

Best wishes
(Still sick, blah) C4

[John G]

Hi John


This is how Schwartz describes the screams:
the woman screamed three times, but not loudly

Consistent with someone having a silk scarf pulled tightly around their throat.



Well she was wearing a silk scarf, John and the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight

Hello Jon,

But that's not what Schwartz witnessed, despite having a good enough view to give a detailed account of the assault. And as I noted, it takes about 10-15 seconds for the onset of unconsciousness in a ligature strangulation, and I doubt the entire blitz attack "witnessed" by Schwartz would have taken that long. Moreover, there aren't any ligature marks. I also think that it would be highly unusual, and counter productive, for anyone to even attempt to pull someone into the street by grasping for a small scarf. And I would also have thought it would be extremely difficult to execute the other manoeuvres described by Schwartz, I.e. turn them around and propel them to the floor, using such a garment; the whole process is simply not expedient.

In all probability there would be other indicators of someone choking, such as a wheezing sound and the victim's hand instinctively moving to the throat,I.e. in an attempt to loosen the ligature:Schwartz saw none of these things.

A screaming sound is not consistent with a choking sound-the two are entirely different. The scarf could have been pulled tight during an attack from behind in the yard.

[John G]

Hello John

Just been reading though things again and what caught my attention were the bruises on her shoulders, consistent with her being forced down, I believe, into a sitting position, prior to the garroting which would cause her to lose consciousness very quickly. "The body looked as though it had been laid down quietly" - she was very slight, apparently, so an easy thing to just pick her up when she was insensible, and place her in a suitable position. Rendered unconscious very quickly, picked up and places where he wanted her. A reason for first pushing her down could be that the killer was not much taller and it was easier to throttle her from above (more control).

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

None of which Schwartz witnessed. She would not have lost consciousness quickly; it takes 10-15 seconds for the onset of unconsciousness to take effect as a consequence of being strangled by a ligature. See:http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html