Packer and Schwartz

[lynn cates]

rough

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

The mud shows she was ON the ground--not thrown.

Please be aware that those were rather rough stones, not slats. AND they were wet.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello C4,

There were no bruises on her shoulders! There is zero evidence that Schwartz witnessed Stride being forced to the ground by her shoulders, that's simply inventing a third scenario: the police report says she was thrown to the ground and the Star's version pushed. There is zero evidence that she was strangled.

It makes no sense that BS man, having attempted to pull Stride into the street, would then disengage and get hold of her shoulders instead, forcing her to the ground. Whereas, grabbing hold of her arms, spinning her around and throwing her to the ground makes perfect sense as this can be achieved in one fluid motion.

If Stride had only been forced to the ground by her shoulders, why didn't she just get up and run away? Why wasn't she screaming for assistance?
At least if she was thrown to the ground she may have been temporarily stunned or in a state of shock, and possibly even out of breath after struggling with BS man. That, at least, would explain why she didn't attempt to escape, I.e. when BS man's attention was distracted as he saw off Schwartz. And why the screams weren't very loud.

Hello John

Still in the throes of la grippe, but will do my best:

From JTR Sourcebook:

Dr Blackwell: There were some pressure marks on the shoulders",
A juryman "Do you know how these marks were likely to have been caused?"

Blackwell:"By two hands pressing on the shoulders".

Dr George Baxter Phillips:"over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and on front of the chest there was a blueish discolouration, which I have watched and seen on two occasions since."

Forcing her to her knees would only get mud on the hem area of her clothing, which must have been fairly mud-spattered anyway and that he carried her into the yard is not, in my opinion, extremely far-fetched: "no sign of a struggle", "looked as though she had been quietly laid down." (Not up to chasing ref for the last two quotes, but that was said.

My scenario fits - up to and including the cachous. She did cry out but was throttled after Schwarz shot past (ok, walked and then ran.) if, of course Schwarz made it all up, of course, all this is irrevelant, but it beats me that perfectly good witnesses on this site are found to be lying by posters (for their own agendas), while definitely dodgy ones (Maxwell) are now found to be credible. It is agreed that the police did not share information with the press, but suddenly the police in Leman street are quoted as saying that Schwarz' evidence wasn't taken seriously. I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with protecting a witness?

As I said, my theory fits, cachous and all, despite all of the dancing around with wives/girlfriends and scarves, other people's don't (as far as I can see), as to getting Liz from the street to behind the doors. Why shouldn't he have just lifted her up post choking and placed her where he wanted her?

That's all, I can feel my temp rising again.

Best wishes
C4

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

I still think that, on balance, Stride was was a Ripper victim. Reject BS man and what your left with is a killer who was able to quickly, and stealthily, overpower the victim, whilst remaining undetected in a public area, I.e. next to a busy club where, during the assault, Mrs D was probably sat just feet away, in the kitchen, with the window open, but yet still heard nothing.

He was also able to make good his escape, without attracting attention to himself, despite the fact that the Berner Street locality appeared to be a high traffic area. And, of course, he seemed to have persuaded Stride to accompany him into a pitch-black yard, whilst ensuring that she was completely oblivious to the danger she was in, imlying a high degree of subtlety on his part (the antithesis of clumsy BS man.)

That suggests to me a degree of pre-planning and organisation, which may be indicative of an experienced killer.

Well reasoned John.
As you may recall, I also feel the Smith suspect to be her killer, but was he Jack?
Towards that end you make a reasonable case.

It's just the coincidence factor isn't it, that Jack is setting up a prospective victim who just happens to be assaulted by a passer-by in full view of witnesses, which plays to your advantage.
You are then able to murder her with impunity, witness testimony indicates the passer-by was (mistakenly) the likely perpetrator.

No-one saw you in the shadows.

[Wickerman]

Hello John

Still in the throes of la grippe, but will do my best:

From JTR Sourcebook:

Dr Blackwell: There were some pressure marks on the shoulders",
A juryman "Do you know how these marks were likely to have been caused?"

Blackwell:"By two hands pressing on the shoulders".

Dr George Baxter Phillips:"over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and on front of the chest there was a blueish discolouration, which I have watched and seen on two occasions since."

Hi Gwyneth.

As we know both Chapman and McKenzie had these same bruises, any solution as to how the victims came to have them should be the same across all three cases.
Any theory we apply to one victim should be applied to the other two also, to see if it fits.

However, the bruises at those locations on the body may have nothing directly to do with their deaths, perhaps more due to their chosen "profession" in life.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Lynn

I've blown up a section of Philip Hutchinson 1901 picture

Hope he doesn't mind as this is his copyright, perhaps if i recommend that everyone buys his book which tells the fascinating story of how they dated the photograph....but I'm only illustrating a very tiny part of the photo to make an observation and hoping that is OK and does not upset him.

However my point is that in 1901, it appears that slats went from the pavement and into the yard where Stride was found

Yours Jeff

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth.

As we know both Chapman and McKenzie had these same bruises, any solution as to how the victims came to have them should be the same across all three cases.
Any theory we apply to one victim should be applied to the other two also, to see if it fits.

However, the bruises at those locations on the body may have nothing directly to do with their deaths, perhaps more due to their chosen "profession" in life.

Hello Jon

Wouldn't that imply that he went about throttling them in the same way though? Stride's bruising became more obvious as time passed, which would point to them have being inflicted around the time of death?

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth.

As we know both Chapman and McKenzie had these same bruises, any solution as to how the victims came to have them should be the same across all three cases.
Any theory we apply to one victim should be applied to the other two also, to see if it fits.

However, the bruises at those locations on the body may have nothing directly to do with their deaths, perhaps more due to their chosen "profession" in life.

Hello again Jon

If you mean what I think you mean by their profession causing the bruising, I would refer you to the late great Terry Pratchett's delicate way of putting this, that is however many fancy french cook books one has read, most people would settle for egg and chips, if nicely done.

I think this would have applied to the clientele the ladies would have attracted.

Best regards
Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

B S M

Hello Gwyneth. How was BSM positioned when he was throttling her?

(Get well soon.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mark

Hello Jeff. Thanks for the photo.

In 1888, there was both dirt and stone--if I recall properly. Either would have left a mark, not to mention wetness.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks for the photo.

In 1888, there was both dirt and stone--if I recall properly. Either would have left a mark, not to mention wetness.

Cheers.
LC

I'm not certain that was Philip Hutchinson's conclusion

I think there were slats?

And a velvet skirt glides easily over wet slats

Yours Jeff

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth. How was BSM positioned when he was throttling her?

(Get well soon.)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn

Thanks :-). Difficult to say. "He put a hand on her shoulder". If his attentions were unwelcome I would say that she would turn away from him, so I imagine from behind, but I plead the bubonic flu so you can't quote me :-).

Just reread, my cognitive facilties not being up to scrátch. Almost certainly throttled from behind. Quickest and easiest.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[Wickerman]

Hello again Jon

If you mean what I think you mean by their profession causing the bruising, I would refer you to the late great Terry Pratchett's delicate way of putting this, that is however many fancy french cook books one has read, most people would settle for egg and chips, if nicely done.

I think this would have applied to the clientele the ladies would have attracted.

Best regards
Gwyneth

Hi Gwyneth.

There is evidence from at least the 14th century onwards that both anal coitus and what was termed intercrural (between the legs) was the preferred method to satisfy the male when performing sex and to avoid pregnancy.
The man is naturally, positioned behind the woman.
These were by far thee most likely methods adopted by the East End prostitute in the 19th century.

The hands of the man are then gripping over the shoulders of the woman, and pressure marks of the fingers may be apparent around both collar bones.
Marks of the profession.

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth.

There is evidence from at least the 14th century onwards that both anal coitus and what was termed intercrural (between the legs) was the preferred method to satisfy the male when performing sex and to avoid pregnancy.
The man is naturally, positioned behind the woman.
These were by far thee most likely methods adopted by the East End prostitute in the 19th century.

The hands of the man are then gripping over the shoulders of the woman, and pressure marks of the fingers may be apparent around both collar bones.
Marks of the profession.

Hello Jon

I bow to your wisdom.

Cheers
Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

wet

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"And a velvet skirt glides easily over wet slats"

And since they were wet, her dress should have been wet.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"If his attentions were unwelcome I would say that she would turn away from him, so I imagine from behind,"

OK, this is before he threw her to the ground? So no cachous.

So AFTER she gets up, she turns round, stops for a cachou, and then . . . ?

Cheers.
LC