Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

PS Another thought

Although its possible that Schwartz might not have seen another man inside Dutfield Yard..Surely it would be impossible for BSM not to notice the man?

So he would be another witness, why didn't he come forward and if he did why doesn't Swanson mention him in the Home Office report?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

I agree that Stride was from behind. Chapman and Kelly from the front.

Chapman?

Are you sure Jeff?

Dr. Phillips:

He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck..

The throat had been severed as before described. the incisions into the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck. There were two distinct clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel with each other and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

She almost lost her head... from the front?

[S.Brett]

PS Another thought

Although its possible that Schwartz might not have seen another man inside Dutfield Yard..Surely it would be impossible for BSM not to notice the man?

So he would be another witness, why didn't he come forward and if he did why doesn't Swanson mention him in the Home Office report?

Yours Jeff

What did they see? ...not more than a black shadow...

[S.Brett]

Hello S Brett.

"If all this was so, then Schwartz and Lawende were not at the Seaside Home. The police must have used a "third" witness."

Indeed. Try Julius Lowenheim.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

Mary Ann Cox:

At a quarter- past six I heard a man go down the court. That was too late for the market.

No. 5 Millers Court was at the end of the court. There also were privies. Next to Kelly´s room were a privy, a water pump and a dustbin. I think it is possible that Cox heard a man who used the privies and/or the water pump. There were three carmen that morning in Dorset Street. Maybe one of them had gone into the court where he saw Kosminski after this man had left Kelly´s room (but four hours before Kelly was found). This is my idea of the Seaside Home witness. Kosminski knew: There was a face-to-face... In such a case, perhaps, Kosminski was appalled as if had seen the devil in person... but the truth is: The carman had seen the devil... and he was not aware of it...

[S.Brett]

Mrs Long doesn't see a parcel nor does Annie Farmer

Surely jack conceals his knife in side coat pocket?

The knife in his back pocket... it would make more sense... I have no idea...

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

At 12.30am, 30th September 1888, PC Smith saw...

during Saturday evening...

How sure can we be that the official police description released on the 1st belonged only to PC Smith? Is it possible: PC Smith + another witness?

Hi Karsten.

Fair question, if I understand your point.
You think the published description is a composite of details provided by more than one witness?

Honestly, I seriously doubt the police would do that.
In fact, we do have at least one example released by police where separate descriptions are provided, so not brought together as a composite, in the Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12th.

"At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

"Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard London, S.W.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881112.html

When the police are looking for a suspect, and they use the details provided by more than one witness, it is not in their interests to blend details together. It would be an assumption on their part that the two men are the same, which may not be the case.

[Jeff Leahy]

Chapman?

Dr. Phillips:

He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck..

The throat had been severed as before described. the incisions into the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck. There were two distinct clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel with each other and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

She almost lost her head... from the front?

Slightly off subject here Karsten, but off the top of my head, i think the reasoning was to do with Strangulation.

Chapman's tongue appears to be protruding suggesting she was strangled..its been a few years since I run through medical reports...but this would be consistent with Jack strangling the victims, cutting the throat to reduce blood pressure before mutilation...

So i don't think jack would have attacked from behind with a knife the blood splatter at the location would have been far more wide spread probably covering poor old Cadoshe (He was having a bad day as it was)

So i think chapman was dead before he tried to remove the head, what position he was in during this I'm uncertain.. but I think she was facing him when he put his hands around her throat..

I'm of the opinion that Jack varied his MO considerably according to environment and circumstance dictated by his victims

Some from the front and sone from behind

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

PS Another thought

Although its possible that Schwartz might not have seen another man inside Dutfield Yard..Surely it would be impossible for BSM not to notice the man?

So he would be another witness, why didn't he come forward and if he did why doesn't Swanson mention him in the Home Office report?

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff.

There can be, and there are, any number of reasons why a witness will not come forward - he may have been married, or even wanted by police for something else.
I mean, the fact a woman was murdered that he says he assaulted just minutes prior, is hardly a sound alibi for her murder

He could have been wrongly accused if he came forward.

[S.Brett]

Fair question, if I understand your point.
You think the published description is a composite of details provided by more than one witness?

Yes, Jon...

Hi,

I confess that I do not know what really and exactly happened in Berner Street. From where should I know? It seems to me that, if Kosminski is Jack the Ripper, in Berner Street, next to the Dutfields Yard/Jewish Club, it all began. They (Woolf, Betsy and Aaron...) moved to London and their "first address" (?) was 38 Berner Street in 1882. I guess end of 1887/beginning of 1888 Woolf moved back, close to Dutfields Yard, in 25 Providence Street. Maybe, this was the trigger for Aaron... the trigger that caused that he became a murderer... the Berner Street thing is extremely complicated... and so important... I think it is possible that Jack the Ripper "was born" there...

You wrote: in the Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12th

Yesterday I wrote:

If the man with the woollen scarf of a violet colour and the haggard face found by a constable later in day on 1. October not far from Mitre Square is Kosminski and to him belonged the bloody shirts in Batty Street (Mrs. Kuer) which the police could assign him later in October 1888 then this was a seriously problem for Kosminski. If Matthew Packer recognized Kosminski ,end of October 1888, as the man who bought grapes at the shop of him accompanied by Stride and a member of the Kosminski family suspected Aaron of being the Ripper then it got worse for him than before. Maybe, this family member stated: Years ago he lived next to the Dutfields Yard (Murder in Dutfields Yard! At this moment a member of the family thought: Please, not Aaron). The police knew for sure that the brother Woolf lives in Providence Street a few steps away from the Stride crime scene. The police had to accept that he was the man in Dutfields Yard who was not seen by BS Man, Schwartz and Pipeman. But he was there... The newspaper parcel, described by PC Smith, maybe, it was a paper bag with grapes...

If all this was so, then Schwartz and Lawende were not at the Seaside Home. The police must have used a "third" witness. Not necessarily from the night of the Double Event. I think he was from the Kelly murder.

If all this is right I understand why Kosminski was the "Prime Suspect"...

I think (I am convinced), before 12 November 1888 the police (MET and City) had a prime suspect... and this was Kosminski... Maybe it was their intention that Kosminski should think the police is letting him go... there are other suspects...

Today I wrote:

Lynn,

Mary Ann Cox:

At a quarter- past six I heard a man go down the court. That was too late for the market.

No. 5 Millers Court was at the end of the court. There also were privies. Next to Kelly´s room were a privy, a water pump and a dustbin. I think it is possible that Cox heard a man who used the privies and/or the water pump. There were three carmen that morning in Dorset Street. Maybe one of them had gone into the court where he saw Kosminski after this man had left Kelly´s room (but four hours before Kelly was found). This is my idea of the Seaside Home witness. Kosminski knew: There was a face-to-face... In such a case, perhaps, Kosminski was appalled as if had seen the devil in person... but the truth is: The carman had seen the devil... and he was not aware of it...

If the police found, two years later (second half of 1890), the Seaside Home witness and when the ID took place Kosminski fell from the chair when he saw the witness... then Anderson was right when he stated:

"and the result proved our diagnosis was right on every point"

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Slightly off subject here Karsten, but off the top of my head, i think the reasoning was to do with Strangulation.

Chapman's tongue appears to be protruding suggesting she was strangled..its been a few years since I run through medical reports...but this would be consistent with Jack strangling the victims, cutting the throat to reduce blood pressure before mutilation...

So i don't think jack would have attacked from behind with a knife the blood splatter at the location would have been far more wide spread probably covering poor old Cadoshe (He was having a bad day as it was)

So i think chapman was dead before he tried to remove the head, what position he was in during this I'm uncertain.. but I think she was facing him when he put his hands around her throat..

I'm of the opinion that Jack varied his MO considerably according to environment and circumstance dictated by his victims

Some from the front and sone from behind

Yours Jeff

Hey Jeff!

Okay, I understand your point.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff.

There can be, and there are, any number of reasons why a witness will not come forward - he may have been married, or even wanted by police for something else.
I mean, the fact a woman was murdered that he says he assaulted just minutes prior, is hardly a sound alibi for her murder

He could have been wrongly accused if he came forward.

OK I get the snario You and Karsten are forwarding

I still don't know why Morris Eagle missed the couple but if they are deliberately trying to avoid being seen and he's in a hurry may be its possible...

But why does stride start an argument with BSM, when she has a client in the Ally, a rather dangerous client at that...

Perhaps BSM actually argues with the client and schwartz fails to see or hear that.... Isn't there a film called 'Blow up' where people have different angles of the same murder?

It just all seems to rely on lots of what if's, when if the man seen by Smith is rejected by Stride... goes with another man, seen by Brown, she rejects him also and heads back to Dutfield where she see's the first rejection and says no again

He BSM kills her almost instantly and walks off

Its just so much cleaner and fits everyones accounts

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

@Lynn:

I have found your video.

From 2:40 minutes onwards I agree with you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95rqNxxbiM

[S.Brett]

OK I get the snario You and Karsten are forwarding

I still don't know why Morris Eagle missed the couple but if they are deliberately trying to avoid being seen and he's in a hurry may be its possible...

But why does stride start an argument with BSM, when she has a client in the Ally, a rather dangerous client at that...

Perhaps BSM actually argues with the client and schwartz fails to see or hear that.... Isn't there a film called 'Blow up' where people have different angles of the same murder?

It just all seems to rely on lots of what if's, when if the man seen by Smith is rejected by Stride... goes with another man, seen by Brown, she rejects him also and heads back to Dutfield where she see's the first rejection and says no again

He BSM kills her almost instantly and walks off

Its just so much cleaner and fits everyones accounts

Yours Jeff

Jeff, I think he "loved" and hated it at the same time when a prostitute made sure that they were alone. At the end he gave them the feeling that they will have the full control (they should lead) but in reality he took the control at this moment. After Eagle was inside the club Stride taking a final look at the street and saw BS Man and Schwartz...

[Abby Normal]

ahh.. it all can be explained by the invisible man hiding in the shadows.
But wait-is he the witness or the killer? or both?

What a load of garbage.

Lets just start going with fairy tails to explain things then. Its so much more interesting than the boring facts- that Stride was with the same man wearing a peaked cap seen by several witnesses, including the man who attacked her shortly before her body was discovered. The same man seen with Eddowes before her body was discovered.

The invisible man is so much more realistic(sarcasm) than the simple fact, proven time and again by forensic experts, that people can hold onto objects through extreme violence and death.

sorry for the interruption. Please carry on.

[John G]

It says: 'On crossing to the other side of the street' which is a little more ambiguous. But I agree that the event is probably why he crossed over. Again, you can't scream not very loudly , its a contradiction suggesting poor translation. If you scream and that scream is muffled for some reason, then it could be not very loudly.



the Cachous are always a problem what ever theory you put forward. Clarsping then tightly suggests a reflex action. shock (Not that I'm suggesting Jack used a cattle prod) But if the uncial attack caused considerable pain as I suggested, the scarf pulled tight cutting the blood flow the left arm pulled up hard behind the back, then perhaps the reflex is to claps the sweets

But I really don't know for sure.



Actual Silk is far stronger than rope. The moguls wore it under the armour incase they were hit by arrows , they could pull them out. Bullet proof vests are made of Spider silk the hardest known substance.

If the scarf was knotted around her neck i think you could pull her along by it. Especially with force.



I said I didn't think it was possible to scream 'not' loudly so its possible this is a poor translation, meaning choking, perhaps the words weren't available?



Stride was described at the mortuary as pale and white. Unlike chapman for instance, who was ruddy as if strangled. I think Stride passed out due to compression of the cartriod artery the scarf pulling against the neck.



I think its simply simpler to believe he told the truth. That his timings fit the other witnesses, especially if Fanny is only at her door for 10 minutes and Doctor Blackwell's estimate of time of death.

Personally i think that Stride rejected the man seen by PC Smith, the same man seen by Schwartz. He returned and was angry that she was still soliciting and turned him down..

Schwartz didn't have a great view of the event and was scared enough to run.



Its possible but then you have to totally dismiss Schwartz evidence and I don't think thats a good idea. Better to assume everyone told the truth to the best of their ability.



It is possible. I just think it more unlikely of the two sonario's

As I said I think BSM could have dragged Stride over the wet slats without much resistance, her skirt gliding and leaving little trace especially in the dark ally well walked over.

I'm aware that Karsten favours Pipeman and BSM coming forward...I think its possible that pipeman did come forward.

I think Kozminski was arrested and question twice, once on the 14th Oct following the Batty bloody shirt and again following the Annie Farmer /Matilda in brick lane incident...

So Schwartz would have been used then. And as its obvious Kozminski was let go and followed. I think we can presume Schwartz either failed to ID him or didn't see the murder

Sorry about delay reply

Yours Jeff

PS I agree that Stride was from behind. Chapman and Kelly from the front.

Hello Jeff,

But this is surely completely re-writing Schwartz's evidence. He does mention Stride being propelled to the floor with the scarf, if that's what you're implying, or her left arm being pulled up behind her back, hard or otherwise. Moreover, BS man would have to release the scarf, as Stride was thrown to the ground, meaning that she would drop/spill the cachous as she attempted to break her fall.

Reinterpreting a scream as a choking sound also amounts to re-writing the evidence. In fact, I don't see how you could possibly mistake two very different, but distinct, sounds.

I accept the silk is strong, but the scarf was relatively short. Therefore, how would BS man possibly get enough purchase as he was dragging her along the ground, especially as the scarf was round her neck? I mean, for one thing the scarf would probably start slipping and move up the chin, and possibly come away from the body altogether, i.e. as the head was forced back. Why were there no ligature marks or knot impressions on the neck? Are there any examples in recorded human history of someone being successfully dragged in such a manner?

If Stride was being dragged along the ground, why was there no damage to the dress? Why no drag marks to the body? Why no evidence of bruising, grazing, or any damage to the skin whatsoever? Why no friction burns? This is surely a physical impossibility.

Okay, I know it had been raining, but Stride wouldn't have been dragged over sheet ice. In fact, I would have thought it would take something akin to Noah's flood to provide sufficient lubrication!

I'm sorry, but a far simpler solution is that Stride was killed by PC Smith's suspect, and Schwartz, who as a Hungarian Jewish immigrant would be about the last person you would expect to get involved, either made the whole story up, or what he witnessed happened much earlier than he thought, and he misidentified Stride.