Packer and Schwartz

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jon,

Yes, but I doubt she was be relaxed enough to suddenly take out the cachous after being pulled into the street, spun around, and thrown to the ground! I think her first thought would be how to get away or call for help. In fact, isn't that what happened? She "screamed three times" Okay, I know apparently "not very loudly", but as Jeff indicated, that's an oxymoron-a bit like Schwartz, in fact! And why would she be holding them tightly in her hand? I'm assuming they weren't special cachous!

As for the spilled cachous, that's explained by Dr Blackwell, 'It is I who split them on removing them from the hand."

Of course, we haven't even started discussing some of the many other anomalies to Schwartz's evidence, I.e. no damage to dress, no sign of bruising, no sign of grazing, flower still intact...

hi JohnG
so she can hold onto the cashoo while being killed but not while being beat up?

[John G]

hi JohnG
so she can hold onto the cashoo while being killed but not while being beat up?

Hi Abby,

Yes, if the attacker seizes her from behind, which I think is what happened, because then she's no need to break the fall. But not whilst being thrown to the ground:

Foreman of the Jury: "Do you think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?"

Dr Phillips: "That is an inference, which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

Of course, this would also avoid damage/creasing to the dress, grazing/bruising to the skin, damage to the flower...

[Wickerman]

But what I would like to say is:

If we assume that the couple of Packer, Marshall and PC Smith is always Stride and the Ripper it makes no sense to think that Stride was suddenly alone. Why? It makes more sense to guess that Stride and the Ripper went into the yard after PC Smith was gone. Waiting at the entrance of the yard also makes sense... until the air is pure...

In this scenario, the Ripper was next to stride when BS Man and Schwartz entered the Berner Street via Commercial Road. In this case Schwartz did not see the Ripper he saw only the woman. With high probability Pipeman also saw only the woman. It is possible that BS Man thought in the darkness of the yard another person is waiting but could not see the man.

If BS Man and Pipeman were found by the police, they knew that no one saw the killer.

That is the way I have argued for a while, Stride had never been seen alone that night, no reason to suppose she was alone in the gateway either.
The man PC Smith saw her with was likely, in my view, her killer. They crossed the road, entered the dark alley, and then BS-man staggers passed, only seeing Stride but no-one else, her client was in the shadows.

I do think this client is the same man that Packer saw between 12:00-12:30, and he could also be the man Stride was with at the Bricklayers Arms earlier that night.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,
Okay, let's consider what Schwartz actually says: "the man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round a threw her down on the footway a the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly." Note, this occurs before Schwartz crosses to the opposite side of the street.

It says: 'On crossing to the other side of the street' which is a little more ambiguous. But I agree that the event is probably why he crossed over. Again, you can't scream not very loudly , its a contradiction suggesting poor translation. If you scream and that scream is muffled for some reason, then it could be not very loudly.

So, apparently, Stride holds on to the cachous whilst being grabbed hold of, pulled into the street-at which point her instinct would surely be to raise both arms to resist, thus dropping the cachous- spun around and, finally, thrown on the footway! Of course, her natural instinct, whilst being thrown to the ground, would be to throw out her arms and spread her fingers, I.e. to break the fall, thus dropping the cachous.

the Cachous are always a problem what ever theory you put forward. Clarsping then tightly suggests a reflex action. shock (Not that I'm suggesting Jack used a cattle prod) But if the uncial attack caused considerable pain as I suggested, the scarf pulled tight cutting the blood flow the left arm pulled up hard behind the back, then perhaps the reflex is to claps the sweets

But I really don't know for sure.

Then, apparently, he grabs her by the scarf and drags her into the Yard. How is this possible? I mean, it's a small silk scarf he's got hold of, not a rope and pulley system! And why wasn't Stride's body grazed and bruised as she's being dragged along the ground? I know it was wet, although it had stopped raining sometime previously, but the yard hadn't presumably turned into a primordial swamp!

Actual Silk is far stronger than rope. The moguls wore it under the armour incase they were hit by arrows , they could pull them out. Bullet proof vests are made of Spider silk the hardest known substance.

If the scarf was knotted around her neck i think you could pull her along by it. Especially with force.

You suggest that the screaming was actually choking. However, Schwartz doesn't mention Stride being choked or grabbed by the scarf. And bear in mind, he heard the screams as he witnessed her being thrown on the footpath-before he crossed the street-so this is something he should have observed. And when does he shout Lipski? Whilst he's trying to drag Stride over the footpath and into the yard presumably!

I said I didn't think it was possible to scream 'not' loudly so its possible this is a poor translation, meaning choking, perhaps the words weren't available?

If your suggesting that he pulled Stride into the street, spun her round, and threw her to the ground, with the scarf, why didn't Schwartz mention this? How would it be remotely possible to complete all of those manoeuvres with just a small silk scarf? Why didn't Stride instinctively raise her hands to her neck, thus dropping the cachous?

Stride was described at the mortuary as pale and white. Unlike chapman for instance, who was ruddy as if strangled. I think Stride passed out due to compression of the cartriod artery the scarf pulling against the neck.

You see that's the problem: just to make Schwartz's evidence make any sense at all one is forced to resort to extreme, implausible, and probably physically impossible solutions. Whereas a far simpler solution is that Stride was not killed by BS man: Occam's razor.

I think its simply simpler to believe he told the truth. That his timings fit the other witnesses, especially if Fanny is only at her door for 10 minutes and Doctor Blackwell's estimate of time of death.

Personally i think that Stride rejected the man seen by PC Smith, the same man seen by Schwartz. He returned and was angry that she was still soliciting and turned him down..

Schwartz didn't have a great view of the event and was scared enough to run.

Here's a different, and in my opinion far more likely, scenario. Stride is killed by PC Smith's suspect. As soon as the officer is out of sight, he persuades Stride to go with him to the club, mentioning the singing and dancing. He informs her he's a member and they will need to gain access via the side door. Stride agrees and they enter the yard, Stride happily eating the cachous.

Its possible but then you have to totally dismiss Schwartz evidence and I don't think thats a good idea. Better to assume everyone told the truth to the best of their ability.

However, something unsettles her. Perhaps it's partially the pitch black darkness, and maybe she also senses the man looming behind her breathing down her neck, poised to strike (of course,she would have been aware of the JtR scare). Maybe he says something which alerts her to possible danger. In any event, she changes her mind, quickly turns round and heads for the exit. The man is initially caught by surprise, but he quickly regains his composure, follows Stride out, catches her from behind (neck or scarf), brings her to the ground and slits her throat. Simple!

It is possible. I just think it more unlikely of the two sonario's

As I said I think BSM could have dragged Stride over the wet slats without much resistance, her skirt gliding and leaving little trace especially in the dark ally well walked over.

I'm aware that Karsten favours Pipeman and BSM coming forward...I think its possible that pipeman did come forward.

I think Kozminski was arrested and question twice, once on the 14th Oct following the Batty bloody shirt and again following the Annie Farmer /Matilda in brick lane incident...

So Schwartz would have been used then. And as its obvious Kozminski was let go and followed. I think we can presume Schwartz either failed to ID him or didn't see the murder

Sorry about delay reply

Yours Jeff

PS I agree that Stride was from behind. Chapman and Kelly from the front.

[S.Brett]

I'm aware that Karsten favours Pipeman and BSM coming forward...

Hi Jeff,

"The Juwes (BS Man, Schwartz and Pipeman) are the men That Will not be Blamed for nothing"

[S.Brett]

That is the way I have argued for a while, Stride had never been seen alone that night, no reason to suppose she was alone in the gateway either.
The man PC Smith saw her with was likely, in my view, her killer. They crossed the road, entered the dark alley, and then BS-man staggers passed, only seeing Stride but no-one else, her client was in the shadows.

I do think this client is the same man that Packer saw between 12:00-12:30, and he could also be the man Stride was with at the Bricklayers Arms earlier that night.

Hello!

It is nice to see that someone thinks the same way about it.

"Newspaper parcel" seen by PC Smith:

Packer: "I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

Evening News, 20 October 1888:

"The police called on Mr. Packer, of 44, Berner-street, yesterday morning. Mr. Packer, when asked his opinion as to where the murderer lodged - for he had seen him several times before the fatal night - remarked, "In the next street." It is considered he is not far wrong in his conjecture; but the police do not deem it prudent to say what steps are being taken in the matter."

Evening News, 31 October 1888:

“He alleges that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman who was murdered in Berner-street, but he had not seen any one resembling the man since the murder till he saw him again last Saturday night” (27 October)

"Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last, I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

Birmingham Daily Post, 14 September 1889:

"Shortly after the commission of the murder preceding the Pinchin Street discovery Packer again expressed an opinion that the criminal did not live "very far from Batty Street," which is within three minutes walk of the railway arch."

"In the next street." Woolf Abrahams, 25 Providence Street

"did not live very far from Batty Street" Providence Street/ Greenfield Street

"Greenfield-street" Isaac Abrahams & Matilda Lubnowski

We should keep an eye on Packer.

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Hello!

It is nice to see that someone thinks the same way about it.

"Newspaper parcel" seen by PC Smith:

Packer: "I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

Hi Karsten.

Yes, I also think it too much of a coincidence to have Stride standing opposite the same gate, with another man, at the same time, and also carrying a package of some description.
Far too coincidental to be two different men, and quite impossible to be there with the same woman at the same time.
Therefore, the men are the same.

The deerstalker hat that PC Smith eventually gave to this man was also not in the first descriptions provided by him.
The man's hat was said to be a hard felt hat, but the deerstalker is a soft hat that you fold up to put in your pocket.
There has to be a mistake there also.

[S.Brett]

Hi Jon,

"He alleges that he had often seen the man before the murder"

I think, for Packer, there was no reason to take a closer look at this man, this man was just a customer (Packer did not expect a murderer)... and he had often seen the man... how many customers did he have on that day? He was not interested in this man. Why? Days later, I can imagine that Packer was trying hard to remember this man.

PC Smith job was to observe other people.

[RockySullivan]

There are a few stories about packer receiving threats and stories about him encountering suspicious men after the murder in letters from hell

[Michael W Richards]

That is the way I have argued for a while, Stride had never been seen alone that night, no reason to suppose she was alone in the gateway either.
The man PC Smith saw her with was likely, in my view, her killer. They crossed the road, entered the dark alley, and then BS-man staggers passed, only seeing Stride but no-one else, her client was in the shadows.

I do think this client is the same man that Packer saw between 12:00-12:30, and he could also be the man Stride was with at the Bricklayers Arms earlier that night.

or...he could just have been someone from the club, having a smoke in the passage as its reported was regularly seen activity by neighbors after Saturday night meetings. "After 1am" reported by some. A man from the club, after a meeting, having a smoke. Mistakes Stride for a woman on the game. Kills her because she insults him and turns her back to walk out of the passageway into better lit environs...into plain sight, because he scared her. He grabs her scarf, pulls and twists, she is off balance and as she falls he runs a blade under her throat. Why? Because he was drunk. Because she pissed him off. Because hes a violent thug. Because he temporarily lost his reason to rage.

This is one murder in the group that does not require bloodthirst or sheer madness to be explained. Although some prefer it that way.

[Michael W Richards]

Question.....of the people who claim they saw a live Liz Stride between 12:30 and 1am, who claimed to have seen her corsage...for the momentary lack of a better word?

If Israel Schwartz lied, then its possible only PC Smith saw Liz Stride on the street around 12:35, and no-one saw her outside of that passageway after that. Which would invite the line of questions that might actually solve this riddle. If she is in the passage, then what is she doing there? Why is she holding cashous? Why does she have a corsage? Why did she feel a need to lint brush her skirt before going out? Why did she leave the fabric swatch with the female lodger? Where was she planning to bed down that night? Does her recent work "among the jews" have some connection to her actions and attire? Why doesnt Morris Eagle see a woman either on the street or in the passageway at 12:40? Does the fact that she is single again have any bearing on her situation that night?

These answers might lead to the creation of far more probable and supportable theories about who killed Liz Stride and why than are at present embraced by many.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn and John G,

I still don't understand why you conclude that Schwartz was lying simply because his story doesn't jive with the details of her death. He only described her being thrown to the ground, he says nothing about her being killed.

c.d.

P.S. I don't want to be the spelling police but the correct spelling is "cachous."

[c.d.]

"I'm guessing your something of an exception! Natural human instinct when falling is to throw out your arms and stick your hands out to protect the head, which is why there are so many broken wrists from rollerblading and skateboarding. Nor does it explain why Stride's hand wasn't bruised or grazed."

Exactly. There can certainly be exceptions but I think this is the natural instinct.
A look at my wrist protectors for rollerblading would confirm this. They are heavily scratched.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

PC Smith job was to observe other people.

Hi Karsten.

Indeed it was, which makes it more mysterious why his description changed when given at the inquest on Oct. 5th.

The official police description released on the 1st was published widely, one example is given below:

The following description has been circulated by the police of a man said to have been seen with the woman Stride (murdered in Berner-street) during Saturday evening:- "Age twenty-eight. Slight. Height, 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance".

How could the Official Press release by Scotland Yard be wrong?
Conversely, how could Cst. Smith change his description from "hard felt hat" to "deerstalker", at the inquest?

The error firmly lies with the police, regardless which is the correct hat.

[Wickerman]

Hello!

It is nice to see that someone thinks the same way about it.

"Newspaper parcel" seen by PC Smith:

Packer: "I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

Point of trivia, both the Times, Daily News and Daily Telegraph gave the size of the parcel as:
about 18in. in length and 6in. or 8in. in width

Yet the London Evening Standard, and the Western Daily Press both describe the package smaller:
"...about eight inches long and six or eight inches wide".

The larger size has been adopted by theorists to suggest the package were flyers being distributed by a Club member.
However, the smaller size is more consistent with a package containing a half pound of grapes.