An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[BooksbyBJThompson]

If we extrapolate this sceen and put it on a street today housing a nosy neighbour, that nosy neighbour will know the details of anyone late a night passing by. Especially, if two doors down is a rollicking party going on.

Fanny's details: take them to the bank.That chick is Berner Street's nosy neighbour.

Fanny could probably recite chapter and verse on every soul who passed by her door when the Working Men's club had their Saturday do.

Of course, the Bag Man is not Jack.
Doesn't stop Fanny from memorizing the guy.
Aberline should have drafted her in plain clothes duty.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

The frustration of when you spend 45 minutes constructing a post that you feel is worthy of everyone reading...and then it somehow deletes as you try and post it.

If i had the money for a replacement, I would gladly smash my laptop to bits right now.

Livid

I hate tech more than I can put into words.

Hi RD,

Same thing has happened to me online. It's freaking devastating. Here's what I do now:

If I've typed out a long post, I Select All and Copy, then Paste entire entry into a SEPARATE online notepad, then hit Publish. That way, if the evil 0s and 1s try to slay me, I have a backup copy to try posting again.

I trust online Publish/Post Reply buttons as much as Jack with a knife.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was just that time 12:45 or a few minutes after 1am?

Does Wess mention people (plural) running up Fairclough St, or just one man chasing the supposed murderer?

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street ...

You’re simply confirming why Wess is unimportant. He heard something from someone a mixed up what he’d heard.

Approx 12.45 - Schwartz saw the incident.
Approx 1.00 - Diemschitz found the body.
Approx 1.02 - Diemschitz and Koz ran for a Constable.

There is no mystery. Unless you invent one of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps Wess returned to the club that morning (after sunrise), ignorant of what had occurred during the night, and just happened to come across a man walking his dog, and who knew and told him all about the incident, because he just happened to be Israel Schwartz. Is that what you mean by Schwartz telling Wess directly, but the two men otherwise having no 'connection'?

.

I don’t consider anyone as ‘having a connection’ just because they might have spoken on one occasion. And in this case they might not even have communicated directly.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Israel Schwartz was interviewed by Abberline. Therefore he existed. Every second discussing whether he existed or not is a second wasted.

[New Waterloo]

Mortimer sees a man with a black shiny bag. I think this can be accepted as fact as there would be no reason to suggest she would make it up.

Mortimer does not know the person. He is walking ver fast on the opposite side of the road to her house and looks at the club when walking by fast.

Wess and Leon Goldsmith SUGGEST to the police and Press that the person is Leon Goldsttein a member of the club.

Wess only has Goldsteins word on this as he (Wess) was not there.

Mortimer becomes aware like everyone that Goldstein is the man she saw. She cannot confirm it was Goldstein. She does not know Goldstein.

Goldstein states he was the man that Mortimer saw. He cannot confirm this. How would he know it was him.

Someone did suggest Mortimer and Goldsmith looked at each other which would seal the job so to speak and give that confirmation.

The only thing Goldstein can confirm through his statement is what he actually said about his walking through the street. I am not sure we have any details about what he said from either Press or Police.

I think he was real and he was likely the person Mortimer saw but we cannot confirm this with the information we have other than the man Mortimer saw had a black bag.

Unless we have more info so we can be sure.

i dont think there is a conspiracy (well no evidence at the moment) and he was just trying to help by saying it was him.

i hope you understand what i am getting at as I am beginning to confuse myself!!

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi RD,

Someone identifying himself as "Schwartz" made a statement to the police.

Precisely!

While Herlock and I are often on opposing sides, I have to agree with his assessment on the unlikelihood of someone frivolously involving themselves in a murder investigation. I don't believe his existence can be denied. His motivation is another subject, but my inclination is that he was a genuine witness.

Cheers, George

George, if you refer to "Schwartz" with scare quotes, whose existence cannot be denied?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's almost as though Schwartz never even existed in the first place.

You're not the first to have wondered that.

Hi Rob

Bearing in mind the total lack of reference to him, in what is after all the most contemporary and relevant work, and in the following issue too, did Schwartz even exist?

Dave

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's interesting that Schwartz never appeared at the inquest.

Consider this ...

I look with some suspicion at the fact that the inquest was held on Oct 1,2 3 and 5, with the summary on the 23rd. I wonder about why Oct 4 was apparently skipped, unless of course this was a day that was used to conduct an in camera testimony from Schwartz. But this amounts to nothing more than suspicion.

It's a good question that George asks, but is he right to say there is nothing to back up his suspicion? What are we to make of the following?

Robert Anderson: I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride’s case is that the name Lipski which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berner St. on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself.

Are we sure, really, really, 100% sure that Israel Schwartz did not attend the inquest?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We can get a reasonable estimate for how long the Schwartz event lasted.

No, we cannot.

How long was Stride supposedly standing at the gateway, before Schwartz turned into the street?

What happened after Schwartz left Berner St, and over what timespan?

We can limit ourselves to the point of view of Schwartz, or we take a more holistic view.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The question therefore is; if Mortimer told the truth about seeing a man with a black bag, then when did she observe him?

Well, based on the times above, Goldstein could have only been passing at either...

12.41-12.44am or 12.46am-12.58am

in other words, Mortimer's evidence proves that Goldstein could NOT have been Schwartz.... because if she saw Schwartz, she would have seen Bs Man also, and possibly Pipeman.

So, Goldstein could not have been Schwartz, because Mortimer did not see two men whose existence was never verified?

[GBinOz]

It's almost as though Schwartz never even existed in the first place.

Swanson's mission on trying to push the killer having been a Jew by the assailant shouting "Lipski" outside a Jewish club, based on the belief that a gentile wouldn't have the balls to do so.

Imagine if an imaginary Schwartz and the GSG were both ruses to oust the real killer?

Or to put a Jewish killer into the spotlight, in a bid to cover for a deviant high-ranking copper with a penchant for carving up unfortunates?


Smoke and mirrors.


"Kosminski" was the suspect.


I call bull""""




RD

Hi RD,

Someone identifying himself as "Schwartz" made a statement to the police. While Herlock and I are often on opposing sides, I have to agree with his assessment on the unlikelihood of someone frivolously involving themselves in a murder investigation. I don't believe his existence can be denied. His motivation is another subject, but my inclination is that he was a genuine witness.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Goldstein is reported (Llyods I think) as going to the Lemon Street police station to identify himself as the man seen by Mortimer on the day after the murder. In the Star, Schwartz is found after he went to the same police station to give his statement with the aid of an interpreter.

It is beyond belief that the same person would go to the same police station wanting to make a statement while pretending to be two different people, one of whom claims not to speak English. The probability of being recognized would be of such concern that to even contemplate such a rise would lead one to go to different police stations at the very least.

Moreover, by giving two statements covering the same time (both men say they were in Berner' about 12:45) further puts him at risk of falling under investigation, especially if his ruse were to become known.

I can see no reason to entertain the suggestion that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person.

- Jeff

Did you read #34? Did anyone?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’ve neither suggested or implied any ‘connection’ between Wess and Schwartz. Wess makes no mention of the Schwartz incident. He mentions someone being chased, someone that he described as “a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer.” So basically he’s saying that someone was chased up Fairclough Street and some people think that this might have been the murderer being chased.

You previously said:

Schwartz tells someone about what he’d seen either directly to Wess or via a third person.

Perhaps Wess returned to the club that morning (after sunrise), ignorant of what had occurred during the night, and just happened to come across a man walking his dog, and who knew and told him all about the incident, because he just happened to be Israel Schwartz. Is that what you mean by Schwartz telling Wess directly, but the two men otherwise having no 'connection'?

The fact that Wess talks about people running up Fairclough Street at just the time that Diemschitz and Kozebrodski were doing exactly that, whilst shouting ‘murder’ stretches coincidence way past breaking point. Clearly there was confusion about Diemschitz and Kozebrodski running for a Constable.

Was just that time 12:45 or a few minutes after 1am?

Does Wess mention people (plural) running up Fairclough St, or just one man chasing the supposed murderer?

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street ...

This part is another confusion “The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.” I tend to think that this unnamed man was Edward Spooner. I reckon that Wess was told by one of the members that a man called Spooner had returned with Diemschitz. Wess, when asked later, couldn’t recall his name but he knew that he wasn’t a club member.

Spooner 'escaped' into Dutfield's Yard, and helped Lamb close the gates.

We know that Schwartz fled the scene well before Diemschitz returned. You are trying to create a mystery where none exists. Nothing mysterious occurred in Berner Street. There isn’t a single incident or event that can’t be explained. Berner Street is being turned into Dealey Plaza. It’s wearing thin.

By 'explain', you mean make up stuff to fill in the gaps, to your own satisfaction.

[The Rookie Detective]

One of the problems is that we don't actually have the police report on Schwartz, so we can't say for certain why he was on the street at that time, let alone if he was carrying a bag of any description.

It's almost as though Schwartz never even existed in the first place.

Swanson's mission on trying to push the killer having been a Jew by the assailant shouting "Lipski" outside a Jewish club, based on the belief that a gentile wouldn't have the balls to do so.

Imagine if an imaginary Schwartz and the GSG were both ruses to oust the real killer?

Or to put a Jewish killer into the spotlight, in a bid to cover for a deviant high-ranking copper with a penchant for carving up unfortunates?


Smoke and mirrors.


"Kosminski" was the suspect.


I call bull""""




RD