An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NW,

Didn't Fanny talk to the couple at the murder scene? If so, then the only way that Spooner and his girlfriend could be Fanny's couple would be if the woman in the couple attended the murder scene.

Also worth noting that Fanny says, "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm...". This would seem to be Spooner. She does not seem to identify this man as being the male half of the couple she spoke to.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He wasn’t on the other side of the road.

“..he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him..”

“..On crossing to the opposite side of the street..”

“..The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road..”

In my model, all of those things are still true. Schwartz does initially walk behind the man; however, he has reached the gateway when the man stops, as per the police report. He does cross the street, which I argue the standard model cannot account for, unless it ignores the police in favour of the press account, which I believe is bad form. Thirdly, I do place Pipeman across the street from the gateway, and South of it, as opposed to the Nelson doorway. This again has me closer to the police account than the standard model which seems to be increasingly favouring the press account.

What people should consider is the implications of Schwartz having reached the gateway when the man stops to talk to the woman. If Schwartz himself does not stop to watch, by the time she is on the ground screaming, Schwartz would be clear of the gateway - that is, South of it. His crossing of the street would then be redundant, for the purpose of avoiding the fracas. Yet he does cross. His journey to 22 Ellen St does not require him to cross the street in the direction normally supposed - away from the gateway - so what gives?

And I stand 100% by my claim that you intentionally try to create mysteries and plots. You do this not because of the ‘evidence’ you do it for the sake of it. You must do.

My reason for putting forward the alternative crossing model was first put forward in #203. Nothing to do with mysteries and plots.

You won’t let this go will you?

I have an opinion on this which is not yours. Get over yourself.

[Tom_Wescott]

If the end of that 20 minutes marks the beginning of the commotion that Fanny was alerted by, the beginning of the period is around 12:45. That would mean the Schwartz stuff likely occurs before then, yet Eagle does not report seeing a woman standing in the gateway.

Because Eagle was BS Man?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with the 2nd paragraph. If Brown and Schwartz were each off by 5 minutes - Brown's 12:45 may have really been 12:40 and Schwartz' 12:45 may have really been 12:50 - then the Schwartz incident could have happened after Brown returned to his house.

Except Brown says he came home at 12:10, and eludes later to the presence of a clock. He probably looked at the clock in his house to make sure he got to the chandler shop before they closed, which is how he was able to place his time of leaving at 'about 12:45'. I agree all times are probably off by some, otherwise Victorians lived their entire lives by quarter hours! However, Brown's sighting of Stride can be timed at circa 12:50, therefore occurring after Schwartz. The man in the overcoat is on the school board side now, Stride is out of the yard, and BS Man is nowhere in sight. Schwartz occurring before Brown is the only way the times work.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

He Echo report supplied by Herlock is interesting. The girls is said to live ‘on the street’ which presumably means Berner Street (can she be identified)

Don't really understand why she says somebody came walking along commercial road in the direction of Aldgate. What is all that about? She said they were about to say goodnight (kiss I expect) on Berner Street. Odd remark

I think she meant walking past them on Berner Street then turning left towards Aldgate on the Commercial Road

Bit early regards timing?

NW

She's saying what Mortimer said, which is that she and her man were on the opposite end of Berner Street from Fairclough Street, walking along Commercial. They separated long before Schwartz and Brown come along and were nowhere around when whatever happened happened.They're irrelvant to our discussions, in other words.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi NW,

Didn't Fanny talk to the couple at the murder scene? If so, then the only way that Spooner and his girlfriend could be Fanny's couple would be if the woman in the couple attended the murder scene.

Fanny talked to the young woman. Her beau had long gone. And this young couple walked along Commercial Road, not along Fairclough Street. Brown could not have mistaken Edward Spooner and his girl as Spooner was standing pretty much under Brown's window. Stride also had quite a distinctive face and her face is all Brown got a good look at.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I’ve just had a quick look through the Berner Street section of Tom’s book again (I’ll read it fully later on hopefully) He gives us this quote from The Echo, Oct 1st

It is established almost beyond doubt that the poor creature met her death some time between twelve and one o’clock. And yet no one seems to have heard a struggle, or a groan, or the slightest indication of what was going on. From twelve o’clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart. “We heard nothing whatever,” she told a reporter this morning. “I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o’clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside them.” “I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said “Good night” a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.”


So Fanny’s couple have bitten the dust.

Thank you, yes. Seven or eight years since I published the book and you're the first person to read and actually acknowledge this section. There is no mystery couple at 12:45. That's simply a tool used to discredit Brown.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's a quote from the 6 Oct Times: "I saw the deceased about a quarter to 1 on Sunday morning. At that time I was going from my house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street. They were standing against the wall. As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them. I am certain the woman was the deceased. I did not notice any flowers in her dress. The man had his arm up against the wall, and the woman had her back to the wall facing him. I noticed the man had a long coat on, which came very nearly down to his heels. I believe it was an overcoat. I could not say what kind of cap he had on. The place where they were standing was rather dark. I saw nothing light in colour about either of them. I then went on and went indoors. I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in."

I don't think it's completely clear whether this account is saying Brown saw her on the way to the shop or on the way home, but the first sentence does say that he saw her at about 12:45. However, your timing of 12:50 could be right anyway, because 12:50 is close enough to 12:45 to fit within the range of his estimate.

I think the 2nd sentence makes it sound like he saw the couple on the way to the shop, but the sentence that says "I then went on and went indoors" makes it sound like he saw them on his way back home.

The chandler shop was on the opposite side of the street of Fairclough, so why would he be on the side of the street of the shop and then cross it to go to the other side? It only makes sense for him to cross the street (from the chandler shop side) to go to the board school side if it's after he's left the chandler shop. Having that why, you've underlined why it's important to draw from as many contemporary sources as possible. When it comes to the Stride inquest, they didn't have their best man on the job. Other newspapers were more thorough in their coverage, which is why I quoted from several in Ripper Confidential and again on this thread. Those make it abundantly clear what happened with Brown. But even the times excerpt you posted has Brown leaving his house 'about 12:45' and the sighting occurring some time later. This was not new information when I published it in 2018 but had been ignored by several authors wanting to prop up BS Man as Stride's killer because they believed he physically resembled their suspect the best.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lewis C]

I think we are getting somewhere and the jigsaw just may be coming together a bit more. Common sense tells me there are too many players in this. I think we reach a point at times when we have about 3 or 4 couples a few yards away from the club.
i think it may be reasonable to suggest that Mortimers couple are Spooner and his girlfriend. The reason I suggest this is that Spooner is way out with his timing that night (too early) as is the female in Mortimers couple. Both couples frequent the Commercial Road and are wandering around after pub closing time.


Spooners evidence suggests that he and his girlfriend were stationary at the Beehive for a relatively long period. But that cannot be entirely true. They had the walk from commercial road and importantly the girlfriend had at some point to get home requiring another walk. A girl does mention being on Berner Street on her own at some point. Must think about that.

I think we can say that she does not attend the murder scene. Certainly not initially.

so whatever theory we have she has to walk home. On her own or with Spooner before he attends the yard. The evidence seems to be telling us that as Spooner goes to the yard on his own. We can argue different of course but the girl does not get a mention. Where Spooners girl lived would categorically tell us the direction she walked home because she must have done.

it may tell us a lot

NW

Hi NW,

Didn't Fanny talk to the couple at the murder scene? If so, then the only way that Spooner and his girlfriend could be Fanny's couple would be if the woman in the couple attended the murder scene.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is totally contradicted by the following.



He wouldn't walk into him if on the other side of the road. This is not a difficult concept, yet you keep making the same mistake. As for rejecting my suggestion, you have rejected it emotionally, not logically. The later would require a coherent argument. The former only requires a character assassination. You're quite good at the later.

He wasn’t on the other side of the road.

“..he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him..”

“..On crossing to the opposite side of the street..”

“..The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road..”


You're rejected the words of the man who interviewed Schwartz at length and claiming that my acceptance of the literal meaning of both Abberline and Swanson's words on the subject of Schwartz, amounts to manipulating the facts to suit my own theories. This is a terrible look. Absolutely terrible.

And I stand 100% by my claim that you intentionally try to create mysteries and plots. You do this not because of the ‘evidence’ you do it for the sake of it. You must do.

Your reference to a few feet away has you making the same mistake once again. There is zero fear of BS Man, implicit in the police reports.

This is so tiring.

Then so was Abberline for accepting those words. He questioned Schwartz closely. Had he wanted clarification on the screaming, he would have asked for it. Perhaps he did and the "not very loudly" was the clarification.

You won’t let this go will you?

It's the statement of a mind that cannot handle being challenged.

I’ll let you know when it happens.

No. It’s the statement of mind of someone utterly bone-tired of listening to this nonsense for page after interminable page. It’s the same old stuff.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did you read #395? The relevant Echo report was quoted there.

You're just not reading posts carefully, are you?


This is not an argument.

Stop asking me to re-read posts.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He Echo report supplied by Herlock is interesting. The girls is said to live ‘on the street’ which presumably means Berner Street (can she be identified)

Letchford's Sister - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’ve just had a quick look through the Berner Street section of Tom’s book again (I’ll read it fully later on hopefully) He gives us this quote from The Echo, Oct 1st

It is established almost beyond doubt that the poor creature met her death some time between twelve and one o’clock. And yet no one seems to have heard a struggle, or a groan, or the slightest indication of what was going on. From twelve o’clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart. “We heard nothing whatever,” she told a reporter this morning. “I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o’clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside them.” “I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said “Good night” a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.”

Did you read #395? The relevant Echo report was quoted there.

You're just not reading posts carefully, are you?

So Fanny’s couple have bitten the dust.

This is not an argument.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’ve read your point. I understand your point. Please stop insinuating that I don’t get it because I haven’t read it properly. I have read it and entirely reject your suggestion that Schwartz was on the opposite side of the road to begin with.

This is totally contradicted by the following.

I can’t understand why you would suggest that Schwartz pretty much ‘walked into’ BS man.

He wouldn't walk into him if on the other side of the road. This is not a difficult concept, yet you keep making the same mistake. As for rejecting my suggestion, you have rejected it emotionally, not logically. The later would require a coherent argument. The former only requires a character assassination. You're quite good at the later.

No. Again this is your quite deliberate attempt to manipulate the facts to suit your own theories. We cannot apply a timespan to anything just on account of a phrase. A man could see someone punch someone in the face, an event of one second, and that person could be said to have ‘ill used’ the person that he’d hit. You are trying to create a position where Schwartz virtually pulls up a chair and pulls out a flask of tea to watch BS man and the woman. He watched events in passing. If he did stop (which I doubt) it can only have been an instinctive, one second or so action. On one hand we have the timid Schwartz crossing the road to avoid getting involved, and yet on the other you want him standing just a few feet away watching in full view of the man that he was obviously afraid of.

You're rejected the words of the man who interviewed Schwartz at length and claiming that my acceptance of the literal meaning of both Abberline and Swanson's words on the subject of Schwartz, amounts to manipulating the facts to suit my own theories. This is a terrible look. Absolutely terrible.

Your reference to a few feet away has you making the same mistake once again. There is zero fear of BS Man, implicit in the police reports.

Again, you are trying to manipulate the evidence to suit a theory. The above sentence makes no sense. We all understand the sentence and why it was used. You can can go on alone in thinking what you do. You are totally wrong.

Then so was Abberline for accepting those words. He questioned Schwartz closely. Had he wanted clarification on the screaming, he would have asked for it. Perhaps he did and the "not very loudly" was the clarification.

It’s clearly not. It’s a statement of fact.

It's the statement of a mind that cannot handle being challenged.

[New Waterloo]

He Echo report supplied by Herlock is interesting. The girls is said to live ‘on the street’ which presumably means Berner Street (can she be identified)

Don't really understand why she says somebody came walking along commercial road in the direction of Aldgate. What is all that about? She said they were about to say goodnight (kiss I expect) on Berner Street. Odd remark

I think she meant walking past them on Berner Street then turning left towards Aldgate on the Commercial Road

Bit early regards timing?

NW