An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Please quote your sources regarding Mr. Harris doing anything more than coming out his door and seeing what's the matter. And your sources for Mortimer lamenting her loss of liberty, as she certainly would have done if she'd been locked in someone else's yard for hours.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm curious as to who was on Reid's list of 28. The definite, probable, and possibles names. Maybe a subject worthy of its own thread. Here's an interesting one.

Arbeter Fraint: There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor's office.

Krantz didn't mention this Yaffa character at the inquest. Was he/she one of the 28?

Regarding Harris, Spooner said: I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

Did Harris run after Spooner while explaining why he had come out of his house, or did a conversation ensue after both reached the yard? If the later, how long did Mr Harris stay?

Mortimer: It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found.

Where and when did Fanny learn this? It might depend on what access she had to Mrs Diemschitz, during the day. From the Irish Times:

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

I don't think it was in that context that she learnt of the steward's wife whereabouts at the time of the murder, so presumably the women spoke together in the yard. However, which non-club people were still in the yard when the gates were closed, is mostly unknowable.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That is a very good point. Both Eagle and Spooner (and Lave as Pipeman), if involved, would have risked being identified by Schwartz had Schwartz been asked to make identifications.

It gets interesting here as we both accept the Echo report (#462) as reflecting reality. Therefore, we have information transmission from Schwartz to Wess (not necessarily directly). Possibly relevant, we also have Wess dragging Goldstein to the police to make a statement, late Tuesday night.

[Tom_Wescott]

Being locked in the yard doesn't preclude anyone being interviewed by the press during the day. Diemschitz, Kozebrodski and Eagle were all locked in the yard, and each of them spoke to the press, so I don't see why people like Mortimer and Harris couldn't have managed the same feat.

Why would Mr Harris run around to the yard but not go in? Not saying he definitely did, but it's quite possible.

Please quote your sources regarding Mr. Harris doing anything more than coming out his door and seeing what's the matter. And your sources for Mortimer lamenting her loss of liberty, as she certainly would have done if she'd been locked in someone else's yard for hours.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GBinOz]

So curious that Spooner mentions Mr Harris hearing the early whistle, which could only have been due to a WVC patrolman equipped with a police whistle.
IMO the whistling came from the yard - there was an Isaacs and a Jacobs listed as WVC committee members.

Yes, if the police wanted to know what became of her on the street, as we do.
What do you find of most importance, Spooner's lady friend or Goldstein's visit to the cafe?
Goldstein.

So, one more question. In your scenario, why doesn't Eagle tell the truth? He risks being identified by Schwartz, doesn't he?

That is a very good point. Both Eagle and Spooner (and Lave as Pipeman), if involved, would have risked being identified by Schwartz had Schwartz been asked to make identifications.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Schwartz steps off the SE intersection curb, and sees Pipeman advance towards him from the direction of the Nelson, and proceeds to run in the direction of his new home (south along Berner) then Pipeman is now behind him, and Schwartz assumes the advance is continuing. When I used to watch movies with my father and the hero was attempting to escape from heavily armed villains he used to say to the onscreen hero "if you're running away, don't look back, run away".

If Schwartz ran to a railway arch, he goes a lot further than he needs to, to get home. If Pipeman only walks, regardless of how many steps you suppose he took, Schwartz would easily outpace him, allowing him to quickly run home and go inside. Why then, the extra journey? Presumably Schwartz confirmed with Abberline that he was visibly aware of Pipeman running in his direction, who eventually seems to give up the chase or feel he is at a safe distance. I also presume Schwartz would not double-back from the rail arch, to get home, but rather take the long way home.

But not considered worthy of comment at an inquest? It may well be that literature was left and picked up as a matter of daily routine.

So, the parcel either contained grapes or literature. The lack of comment at the inquest (except by Smith) suggests it wasn't left in the editor's office.

Is that also presuming that beside each name and address (which Spooner could have given to Lamb) there is a tick able box labelled "Searched" and another space for Phillip's signature indicating "Examined"? Or was there a presumption that if they were let leave these tasks had been performed?

I think each name and address would have been taken down as each person was searched and examined. Spooner was surely on Reid's list, implying he was still there when Phillips arrived, or that he had special permission to leave early, and his name and address were prepended to the list. What else could be the source of that special permission, if not his association with the WVC? So curious that Spooner mentions Mr Harris hearing the early whistle, which could only have been due to a WVC patrolman equipped with a police whistle.

At the time would the presence, or otherwise, of Spooner's female companion be considered relevant?

Yes, if the police wanted to know what became of her on the street, as we do.

What do you find of most importance, Spooner's lady friend or Goldstein's visit to the cafe?

I'm not sure that I have sufficient suspicion as to constitute the creation of evil plots. I am really just noticing curiosities and anomalies in time lines and testimony for possible comment.

Understood. So, one more question. In your scenario, why doesn't Eagle tell the truth? He risks being identified by Schwartz, doesn't he?

[Trevor Marriott]

At the time would the presence, or otherwise, of Spooner's female companion be considered relevant?

I'm not sure that I have sufficient suspicion as to constitute the creation of evil plots. I am really just noticing curiosities and anomalies in time lines and testimony for possible comment.

There is a simpler explanation: if Stride was prostituting herself outside the club, she would have probably propositioned almost every man who passed by, who's to say one of those men pushed her aside and she fell to the ground

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

IMO you're not quite answering the question, which was "If Stride could explain that her male companion is using the loo and they will both be departing shortly, wouldn't that diffuse the situation?"
You're presuming it got to an explanation stage.
Is the thrown/fell down distinction also about keeping the decibels down?
Yes.

That is really stretching the analogy.
... but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran so far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.
We're surely dealing with more than a few steps here, so there is tension in you wanting Pipeman to soon after reach the gateway.
If Schwartz didn't look back, he can't claim to have been followed, can he? Would it also be fair to ask why Schwartz needs to look back? Isn't he about to step off the kerb, and therefore level with Pipeman across the street? Back, would be in the direction of Hampshire Court, a few doors off. See what I did there?
If Schwartz steps off the SE intersection curb, and sees Pipeman advance towards him from the direction of the Nelson, and proceeds to run in the direction of his new home (south along Berner) then Pipeman is now behind him, and Schwartz assumes the advance is continuing. When I used to watch movies with my father and the hero was attempting to escape from heavily armed villains he used to say to the onscreen hero "if you're running away, don't look back, run away".

Even if neither man noticed him come in, the parcel is still there to be found.
But not considered worthy of comment at an inquest? It may well be that literature was left and picked up as a matter of daily routine.

If Spooner left before being examined by Phillips, I presume he would not have been on Reid's list of 28. That is going to be an issue.
Is that also presuming that beside each name and address (which Spooner could have given to Lamb) there is a tick able box labelled "Searched" and another space for Phillip's signature indicating "Examined"? Or was there a presumption that if they were let leave these tasks had been performed?

I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. (Daily Telegraph)

She could be identified and questioned, whereas ...

I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. (The Times)

... she might remain anonymous.

At the time would the presence, or otherwise, of Spooner's female companion be considered relevant?

I'm not sure that I have sufficient suspicion as to constitute the creation of evil plots. I am really just noticing curiosities and anomalies in time lines and testimony for possible comment.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The time he left the club should have been between 11:30 and 11:45. I'm starting to sympathise with Packer. He said he came back from his girl friend's home straight away, so he is either really bad at estimating time intervals, or got his starting time wrong, or was trying to cover up his actual timeline.

Having cast suspicion on both Eagle and Spooner, are you expecting to be accused of weaving some evil plot, due to an uncontrollable urge to create mysteries where none exist? Surely our in-house Psychoanalyst will have a field day with this. LOL

IMO BSMan took her arm to coax her out of the gateway, she pulled away with a circular motion, he let go and she fell down - this would appear as if she was thrown down.

IMO you're not quite answering the question, which was "If Stride could explain that her male companion is using the loo and they will both be departing shortly, wouldn't that diffuse the situation?"

Is the thrown/fell down distinction also about keeping the decibels down?

I believe he stated that he didn't know to whom the shout was being directed.

Of course, that is not what he initially believed, and he never quite gave up on his initial belief, in spite of Abberline's suggestive questioning. In my model, Schwartz crosses the street in the general or specific direction of the gateway. This makes understanding Schwartz's belief as to who 'Lipski' was shouted at, a no-brainer. It also explains the reaction of both men - his movements provoke their responses. The standard model (not yours) is too naïve.

I think this is like your "not fifty yards" allowing for a lesser distance. A few steps would constitute "not following so far", particularly if Schwartz didn't look back, so we don't know how far he followed.

That is really stretching the analogy.

... but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran so far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

We're surely dealing with more than a few steps here, so there is tension in you wanting Pipeman to soon after reach the gateway.

If Schwartz didn't look back, he can't claim to have been followed, can he? Would it also be fair to ask why Schwartz needs to look back? Isn't he about to step off the kerb, and therefore level with Pipeman across the street? Back, would be in the direction of Hampshire Court, a few doors off. See what I did there?

Just as a guess, perhaps Parcelman dropped his parcel off at the printing office (before or after a Loo visit) without being seen by Krantz - "I work in a room forming part of the printing office".

Even if neither man noticed him come in, the parcel is still there to be found.

Police: Who's is this?

Daily News 3 Oct:
Edward Spooner - As soon as Police-constable Lamb arrived, I went away, after helping him to shut the gates. Before I left I was searched and gave my name and address, and was examined by Dr. Phillips.

I think this is a condensed account of the Telegraph version, where the punctuation indicates that Reid was asking questions. If Spooner left immediately after helping to close the gates, as he indicated, and this was after giving his name and address to Lamb, would anyone have been able to dispute whether he was also searched and examined by Phillips? His appearance at the inquest was following Lamb but on a different day from Phillips.

If Spooner left before being examined by Phillips, I presume he would not have been on Reid's list of 28. That is going to be an issue.

From memory, Diemshitz and Kozebrodsky claimed they saw grapes before Spooner knelt to touch the body, so could he have taken the grapes, eaten them and thrown the stalk in the grate where a stalk was later reportedly found?

Perhaps, and this has been suggested.

As I previously said, this is all just conjecture, but I do find it curious that Spooner's times seem to be confused, and his girl friend seems to be invisible (was she Stride), and that when he arrives at the yard with Diemshitz and finds about fifteen people standing around the body he is bold enough to assume the authority of examining her.

I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. (Daily Telegraph)

She could be identified and questioned, whereas ...

I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. (The Times)

... she might remain anonymous.

[GBinOz]

Eagle as BS Man - fair enough. There really is very little time for it to be anyone else if a couple are getting to the board school corner at around 12:45. Even more so if we consider Smith's timings to be about 5 minutes early. Some editing required on Eagle's departure time?
The time he left the club should have been between 11:30 and 11:45. I'm starting to sympathise with Packer. He said he came back from his girl friend's home straight away, so he is either really bad at estimating time intervals, or got his starting time wrong, or was trying to cover up his actual timeline.

Is it realistic to suppose a man on the street would casually use the yard loos? Perhaps. Would Eagle mind her being there so much that he would get physical with her? Perhaps. If Stride could explain that her male companion is using the loo and they will both be departing shortly, wouldn't that diffuse the situation?
IMO BSMan took her arm to coax her out of the gateway, she pulled away with a circular motion, he let go and she fell down - this would appear as if she was thrown down.

Does Eagle shout at the men as Schwartz is walking to the intersection? How then would Schwartz be aware of who the man is shouting at?
I believe he stated that he didn't know to whom the shout was being directed.

Why does the man's shouting prompt Pipeman to approach Schwartz, if Eagle has seen both men looking at what he is doing?
If Pipeman then approaches Eagle, he does not follow Schwartz. What happened to Schwartz running to the railway arch, but the other man not following so far?
I think this is like your "not fifty yards" allowing for a lesser distance. A few steps would constitute "not following so far", particularly if Schwartz didn't look back, so we don't know how far he followed.

If Spooner or another man offer to take Stride into the club, wouldn't she refuse given her man is just about to come out of the loo? Speaking of which, this is becoming a long pee! Perhaps Parcelman suffered from incontinence and the parcel contained emergency toiletries? Just joking.
If Spooner is Parcelman, what became of the parcel?
Just as a guess, perhaps Parcelman dropped his parcel off at the printing office (before or after a Loo visit) without being seen by Krantz - "I work in a room forming part of the printing office".

As Spooner was searched along with everyone else locked into the yard, did he consume the grapes?

Daily News 3 Oct:
Edward Spooner - As soon as Police-constable Lamb arrived, I went away, after helping him to shut the gates. Before I left I was searched and gave my name and address, and was examined by Dr. Phillips.

I think this is a condensed account of the Telegraph version, where the punctuation indicates that Reid was asking questions. If Spooner left immediately after helping to close the gates, as he indicated, and this was after giving his name and address to Lamb, would anyone have been able to dispute whether he was also searched and examined by Phillips? His appearance at the inquest was following Lamb but on a different day from Phillips. From memory, Diemshitz and Kozebrodsky claimed they saw grapes before Spooner knelt to touch the body, so could he have taken the grapes, eaten them and thrown the stalk in the grate where a stalk was later reportedly found?

As I previously said, this is all just conjecture, but I do find it curious that Spooner's times seem to be confused, and his girl friend seems to be invisible (was she Stride), and that when he arrives at the yard with Diemshitz and finds about fifteen people standing around the body he is bold enough to assume the authority of examining her.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz had reached the gateway when he stopped to watch the man who was ill-using the woman. Presumably he watched from some distance, and not while at the gateway himself. This suggests he watched from across the street. Crossing the street from that point would have him angling toward home on Ellen St, but it could take him closer to the gateway if he had wanted to intervene in the situation. That would make him an intruder, from the man's point of view. Does that ring a bell?

An observer to this situation might become confused as to who the perpetrator was, especially if a man is then seen being pursued from the scene. That observer might be hypothetical, but the following report from the Echo suggests otherwise.

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If I may be permitted to present a scenario based on nothing more than speculation and conjecture:

Eagle leaves the club between 12:30 and 12:45 to accompany his lady to her home. Eagle married Kate Kopelansky on 23 Dec 1888, who lived at her parent's home at 183 Whitechapel Road. Presuming this is the lady in question, the return trip to this address is approximately 30 minutes. Eagle states that "I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club". This provides Eagle with a little time to indulge in some libations on the way back and appear a little tipsy as he proceeds down Berner St on his return to the club.

Eagle as BS Man - fair enough. There really is very little time for it to be anyone else if a couple are getting to the board school corner at around 12:45. Even more so if we consider Smith's timings to be about 5 minutes early. Some editing required on Eagle's departure time?

He encounters Stride standing in the gateway awaiting the return of Parcelman from an urgent visit to the Loo in the yard. Presuming her to be there for immoral purposes he tries to encourage her to leave, but she breaks free of his grasp and falls on the ground. Schwartz, who is walking behind Eagle, observes a presumed domestic, crosses the road and walks towards the intersection with Fairclough St. By this time Stride is objecting to Eagle's interference, knowing that Parcelman will return at any moment, and informs Eagle in no uncertain terms. Eagle sees that two men are observing the proceeding and shouts at them, after which Pipeman approaches Schwartz, who is then spooked and leaves "incontinently".

Is it realistic to suppose a man on the street would casually use the yard loos? Perhaps. Would Eagle mind her being there so much that he would get physical with her? Perhaps. If Stride could explain that her male companion is using the loo and they will both be departing shortly, wouldn't that diffuse the situation?

Does Eagle shout at the men as Schwartz is walking to the intersection? How then would Schwartz be aware of who the man is shouting at?

Why does the man's shouting prompt Pipeman to approach Schwartz, if Eagle has seen both men looking at what he is doing?

Pipeman then approaches Eagle who desists in his objection to Stride's continued presence and enters the club by the side door. So is Spooner actually Pipeman, and offers to accompany Stride to the safety of the club and kills her in transit. Or is Spooner actually Parcelman, and Stride is the mentioned girl friend, and he returns from the Loo and kills Stride. Spooner is interrupted and retreats down Fairclough, but when he hears Diemshitz + one running down Fairclough he confronts Diemshitz and accompanies him back to the yard.

If Pipeman then approaches Eagle, he does not follow Schwartz. What happened to Schwartz running to the railway arch, but the other man not following so far?

If Spooner or another man offer to take Stride into the club, wouldn't she refuse given her man is just about to come out of the loo? Speaking of which, this is becoming a long pee! Perhaps Parcelman suffered from incontinence and the parcel contained emergency toiletries? Just joking.

If Spooner is Parcelman, what became of the parcel?

Arriving at the yard he goes straight to Stride's body to make sure that there is no evidence that could incriminate him, such as the grapes, which he removes if he is Parcelman.

As Spooner was searched along with everyone else locked into the yard, did he consume the grapes?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What information can we get from Swanson and The Star by simply reading and applying common sense and without just assuming one version correct and one incorrect.

Swanson: “.. on turning into Berner St from Commercial Road.”

The Star: “.. As he turned the corner from Commercial Road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated.”


Swanson is just summarising events and so would have no inclination or reason to describe every single nuance so it’s not unreasonable to suggest that The Star were reflecting here what Schwartz actually told them. Newspapers can certainly lie and exaggerate but it’s difficult to imagine why they would do so on such a trivial point. If this is the case, and I’m merely suggesting that it’s a reasonable inference to make, then it points to a distance between the two men. If they were closer together then surely it would have been likely that Schwartz would have noticed BS man before they turned into Berner Street?

Although we have no way of estimating the size of the gap between it’s reasonable to infer that it wasn’t as little as, say 10 feet, as Schwartz would surely have seen BS man in Commercial Road. So there is a fair sized gap between them. And remember, in the article it’s described as: “..some distance..”


Swanson: “.. had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed..”

The Star: “..He walked on behind him..”


Again Swanson pays no attention to this trivial detail but The Star has Schwartz ‘behind’ BS man. So ‘behind him’ strongly implies that they were on the same side of the road. As The Star were giving a fuller account of events and mentioned the two men entering Berner Street isn’t it likely that they would have mentioned if Schwartz had been on the opposite side of the road?


Swanson: “.. had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway..”

The Star: “..and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her..”


The Star suggests that Schwartz had seen the woman before BS man got to her which may well have been the case or they may have just assumed this. Either way, it’s not important. Basically BS man stopped and spoke to her.


Swanson: “.. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway..”

The Star: “.. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage..”


There is a difference in pull and push but it’s possible that there could have been a bit of both which might account for the difference in emphasis. It’s still the case though that The Star doesn’t mention the woman being on the floor or anything about her calling out. I have no definitive explanation as to why the part about her being on the floor or the crying out wasn’t mentioned except that they just described the whole thing as a quarrel. I have to admit that it’s not a particularly satisfying explanation though. Schwartz would have been pretty stupid if he had told a significantly different version of events to the police and the Press so perhaps this is down to translation. After all, is it likely that they had a Hungarian interpreter to hand? Or were they relying on whoever was around at Schwartz address at the time. I think that the latter is likelier. So maybe someone who spoke Hungarian but imperfect English or someone that spoke another language but a smattering of Hungarian? I think that this is a much likelier possible explanation.


Swanson: “.. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road ‘Lipski’..”

The Star: “..feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel..”


Both version have Schwartz crossing to the opposite side of the road although The Star has Schwartz hearing the quarrel after he’s walked on a while whilst Swanson has BS man calling out “Lipski” when Schwartz is across the road. The point at which Schwartz first heard the quarrel isn’t particularly important, but again it’s not really likely that he would have two versions that were different in any important sense because he couldn’t possibly have gotten away with it. I think that we would be on fairly safe ground to suggest that this minor discrepancy can again be put down to the language barrier.

What has to pointed out though is that The Star make a point of ‘why’ Schwartz crossed the road. Clearly he had told them it was because he wanted to avoid getting mixed up in the quarrel which of course meant that he crossed ‘away’ from the incident. He crossed from the club side to the other side of the road.


Swanson: “.. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road ‘Lipski’ & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

The Star: “.. but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man’s hand, but he waited{ to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings..”


So Swanson has Schwartz seeing Pipeman as he’d just crossed the street while The Star has this just as he stepped from the kerb. Can this really be of importance? I can’t see how..just as he’d stepped off the kerb or a very few steps later. Insignificant details that have no bearing on anything. Swanson doesn’t mention the public house because it’s unimportant to his summary of events. The Star, fleshing out a story, do mention it, but only in that he came out of the doorway. Perhaps this was a mistaken impression from Schwartz because the man was near to the doorway or perhaps the man had stood in the doorway to light his pipe. What is noticeable though is that he only said that he came from the doorway. He didn’t say that he came out of the pub which he surely would have had that been the case.

The most significant difference of course is in The Star version where Pipeman has a knife and shouted at BS man in a threatening way. Again, is it likely or believable that Schwartz would simply add the part about a knife, at the location of a throat-cutting murder, but withhold it from the police? Wouldn’t the police have contacted Schwartz again to ask “why didn’t you mention the knife?” We have no evidence of this of course but I suggest/suspect that Schwartz might have had a follow-up visit from the police or even a second interview after they had seen what The Star printed, where it was found that the ‘knife’ and the part about Pipeman threatening BS man was down to poor interpretation.

So, although we can’t be exact, we can get a fair picture of what occurred..I’d suggest..


Schwartz turned into Berner Street with BS man 20 or 30 yards ahead of him. He saw him stopped and speak to a woman in the gateway but this quickly, perhaps immediately, turned into a scuffle. Schwartz, wanting to avoid getting up close and personal, cross to the other side of the road. When he got there he saw Pipeman lighting his pipe near to the door of The Nelson. BS man shouts “Lipski” as he sees Schwartz looking over at him. Schwartz, now further along the street with BS man yards behind, he crosses back over and heads home. Pipeman thinks better of confronting BS man further and so walks off in the same direction as Schwartz (who, looking back over his shoulder, sees him and fears that he’s following him, so he runs)

[Herlock Sholmes]

At the moment Schwartz steps from the kerb, there is no beer house a few doors off.

THE NELSON!!!!

So, why did you change "a few doors off" to "a few yards away"? If your argument is so rational and mine so based on ulterior motive, why are you changing the evidence from an already questionable press report, while I'm offering a model based on all the reports and comments we have from the police?

“Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public house a few doors off..”

I didn’t substitute, I simply pointed out that it was just a few yards away. Again…nitpicking.

The Nelson was a few doors off from the scene of the quarrel.

On the contrary, my model of the incident explains existing mysteries - it does not create any new ones. As yet, I haven't seen evidence that you fully understand what I'm putting forward, even after multiple simplifying explanations. That would explain your preference for playing the man and not the ball.

No. You are quite deliberately pursuing your own agenda which has nothing to do with any pursuit of truth. You are wrong. You should admit that you are wrong and stop nitpicking. This is such a tiresome exercise in time wasting.

We know what happened. Petty pointless, nitpickings over wording gets us nowhere.


Schwartz walked directly behind BS man on the same side of the road - FACT

He saw the incident begin - FACT

He crossed to the opposite side to the club - FACT

He walked on for a short but unrecorded distance - FACT

At some point he saw Pipeman - FACT

He couldn’t be certain where he came from but assumed/speculated that it was The Nelson - FACT

BS man yelled “Lipski” - FACT

Schwartz crossed back over the road and headed home - FACT

He looked behind him and saw Pipeman who was heading in the same direction - FACT


End of story, game over, everything sorted….now we can move on.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There was a beer house called The Nelson which was a few yards away. You are nitpicking over a beer house being called a public house.

At the moment Schwartz steps from the kerb, there is no beer house a few doors off.

I’m following the evidence but I’m doing it with a dose of reason and common sense and without an agenda of trying to create the plot of a novel.

So, why did you change "a few doors off" to "a few yards away"? If your argument is so rational and mine so based on ulterior motive, why are you changing the evidence from an already questionable press report, while I'm offering a model based on all the reports and comments we have from the police?

Yours is based on a desire to shape the evidence to create a mystery.

On the contrary, my model of the incident explains existing mysteries - it does not create any new ones. As yet, I haven't seen evidence that you fully understand what I'm putting forward, even after multiple simplifying explanations. That would explain your preference for playing the man and not the ball.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You can suppose he had both feet on the curb; there is still no public house a few doors off.

There was a beer house called The Nelson which was a few yards away. You are nitpicking over a beer house being called a public house.

If instead you prefer to have the man appearing when Schwartz begins crossing, then not only are you are changing the evidence to suit an argument, but you're creating at least one new problem. As you support the press account and suppose Schwartz crosses prior to reaching the gateway, if Pipe/Knifeman has spotted him at this point, and rushes at Schwartz or even just begins moving toward him, Schwartz would have scampered straight back up Berner St, away from Ellen St and the railway arches to the South.

You are using over-complication as a means of obfuscation. Swanson: “On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.” The Star: “..he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public house a few doors..”

Regarding the confusion in the press account, I think Schwartz was talking about a doorway or something like a doorway, and the reporter thinks he means the Nelson. There is no mention of the Nelson by the police. Swanson's report has Pipeman somewhere on the street, but he is totally unspecific about the location, other than to say that he followed Schwartz after Schwartz crossed the street, implying that he came from a relative North location. That would exclude the Nelson.

So Swanson says that Schwartz saw the man after he’d crossed the street but The Star adds a minor detail in that Schwartz had stepped off the kerb as he was returning to the club side before he saw the man.

As Schwartz arrived near the gateway (at the commencement of the incident) he would have been a few yards, or a few doors away from The Nelson. Why you see this as a mystery would be baffling if we didn’t all understand your overwhelming need to create a mystery where none exists. As per usual.

A and B are extremely unlikely, not only for the coincidence of his leaving the pub in the short period in which Schwartz is on the street,

Can you really try and pass this off as logic. Just because two things occurred at the same time they are unlikely to have been true!

but because he would have been easy enough to identify, and there is no sign that he was. C is just a rephrasing of "just as he stepped from the kerb" - already discussed.

An entirely sensible and reasonable suggestion. I think that we can all see why it doesn’t appeal to you.

I don't suppose Pipeman had been on the street when Schwartz walked down it. I think he originated from a location that made him invisible to Schwartz at that point. Possibly Hampshire Court. Walking through that court would take one to the Red Lion on Batty St.

Why the complication? Isn’t the likeliest suggestion that he’d walked around the corner from Fairclough Street. Too obvious?

Sure, it's simple, but that doesn't make it right. My model is based on everything we have from the police. Yours is based on the press account.

Yours is based on a desire to shape the evidence to create a mystery.

Same again - I'm with the police on this matter; you're with the press.

I’m following the evidence but I’m doing it with a dose of reason and common sense and without an agenda of trying to create the plot of a novel.