An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi NW,

Didn't Fanny talk to the couple at the murder scene? If so, then the only way that Spooner and his girlfriend could be Fanny's couple would be if the woman in the couple attended the murder scene.

Fanny talked to the young woman. Her beau had long gone. And this young couple walked along Commercial Road, not along Fairclough Street. Brown could not have mistaken Edward Spooner and his girl as Spooner was standing pretty much under Brown's window. Stride also had quite a distinctive face and her face is all Brown got a good look at.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

He Echo report supplied by Herlock is interesting. The girls is said to live ‘on the street’ which presumably means Berner Street (can she be identified)

Don't really understand why she says somebody came walking along commercial road in the direction of Aldgate. What is all that about? She said they were about to say goodnight (kiss I expect) on Berner Street. Odd remark

I think she meant walking past them on Berner Street then turning left towards Aldgate on the Commercial Road

Bit early regards timing?

NW

She's saying what Mortimer said, which is that she and her man were on the opposite end of Berner Street from Fairclough Street, walking along Commercial. They separated long before Schwartz and Brown come along and were nowhere around when whatever happened happened.They're irrelvant to our discussions, in other words.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with the 2nd paragraph. If Brown and Schwartz were each off by 5 minutes - Brown's 12:45 may have really been 12:40 and Schwartz' 12:45 may have really been 12:50 - then the Schwartz incident could have happened after Brown returned to his house.

Except Brown says he came home at 12:10, and eludes later to the presence of a clock. He probably looked at the clock in his house to make sure he got to the chandler shop before they closed, which is how he was able to place his time of leaving at 'about 12:45'. I agree all times are probably off by some, otherwise Victorians lived their entire lives by quarter hours! However, Brown's sighting of Stride can be timed at circa 12:50, therefore occurring after Schwartz. The man in the overcoat is on the school board side now, Stride is out of the yard, and BS Man is nowhere in sight. Schwartz occurring before Brown is the only way the times work.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

If the end of that 20 minutes marks the beginning of the commotion that Fanny was alerted by, the beginning of the period is around 12:45. That would mean the Schwartz stuff likely occurs before then, yet Eagle does not report seeing a woman standing in the gateway.

Because Eagle was BS Man?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He wasn’t on the other side of the road.

“..he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him..”

“..On crossing to the opposite side of the street..”

“..The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road..”

In my model, all of those things are still true. Schwartz does initially walk behind the man; however, he has reached the gateway when the man stops, as per the police report. He does cross the street, which I argue the standard model cannot account for, unless it ignores the police in favour of the press account, which I believe is bad form. Thirdly, I do place Pipeman across the street from the gateway, and South of it, as opposed to the Nelson doorway. This again has me closer to the police account than the standard model which seems to be increasingly favouring the press account.

What people should consider is the implications of Schwartz having reached the gateway when the man stops to talk to the woman. If Schwartz himself does not stop to watch, by the time she is on the ground screaming, Schwartz would be clear of the gateway - that is, South of it. His crossing of the street would then be redundant, for the purpose of avoiding the fracas. Yet he does cross. His journey to 22 Ellen St does not require him to cross the street in the direction normally supposed - away from the gateway - so what gives?

And I stand 100% by my claim that you intentionally try to create mysteries and plots. You do this not because of the ‘evidence’ you do it for the sake of it. You must do.

My reason for putting forward the alternative crossing model was first put forward in #203. Nothing to do with mysteries and plots.

You won’t let this go will you?

I have an opinion on this which is not yours. Get over yourself.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NW,

Didn't Fanny talk to the couple at the murder scene? If so, then the only way that Spooner and his girlfriend could be Fanny's couple would be if the woman in the couple attended the murder scene.

Also worth noting that Fanny says, "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm...". This would seem to be Spooner. She does not seem to identify this man as being the male half of the couple she spoke to.

[Tom_Wescott]

Also worth noting that Fanny says, "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm...". This would seem to be Spooner. She does not seem to identify this man as being the male half of the couple she spoke to.

I'm impressed you made this observation, but I do have to point out that Fanny never saw the young couple herself nor did she speak to the young man. She spoke to the young woman only. However, it's likely she personally knew both parties involved, in which case, it IS worth noting that she didn't recognize Spooner.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny talked to the young woman. Her beau had long gone. And this young couple walked along Commercial Road, not along Fairclough Street. Brown could not have mistaken Edward Spooner and his girl as Spooner was standing pretty much under Brown's window. Stride also had quite a distinctive face and her face is all Brown got a good look at.

She's saying what Mortimer said, which is that she and her man were on the opposite end of Berner Street from Fairclough Street, walking along Commercial. They separated long before Schwartz and Brown come along and were nowhere around when whatever happened happened.They're irrelvant to our discussions, in other words.

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Because Eagle was BS Man?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Surely not.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/786449-a-closer-look-at-eagle-and-lave

[Tom_Wescott]

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

That's called being misquoted. And are you aware how far 20 yards is?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Surely not.
https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...eagle-and-lave

Good lord, you're not asking me to read through yet another winding Stride thread, are you? Anything interesting on a Stride thread was probably posted by me. LOL. In any event, I would not say I believe that Eagle was BS Man. I merely entertain the possibility because (according to those in the kitchen) he was the last to come in through the side door and his behavior upon seeing the dead body was worthy of comment.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thank you, yes. Seven or eight years since I published the book and you're the first person to read and actually acknowledge this section. There is no mystery couple at 12:45. That's simply a tool used to discredit Brown.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I keep getting interrupted as I’m trying to re-read through it fully Tom. I’ll try again this evening.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In my model, all of those things are still true. Schwartz does initially walk behind the man; however, he has reached the gateway when the man stops, as per the police report. He does cross the street, which I argue the standard model cannot account for, unless it ignores the police in favour of the press account, which I believe is bad form. Thirdly, I do place Pipeman across the street from the gateway, and South of it, as opposed to the Nelson doorway. This again has me closer to the police account than the standard model which seems to be increasingly favouring the press account.

“..but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public house a few doors off” This can only be The Nelson and it can only mean that, whether Pipeman actually came out of the pub or not, he was on the club side of the road.

What people should consider is the implications of Schwartz having reached the gateway when the man stops to talk to the woman. If Schwartz himself does not stop to watch, by the time she is on the ground screaming, Schwartz would be clear of the gateway - that is, South of it. His crossing of the street would then be redundant, for the purpose of avoiding the fracas. Yet he does cross. His journey to 22 Ellen St does not require him to cross the street in the direction normally supposed - away from the gateway - so what gives?

.

Exactly. What gives? You are in one breath saying that Schwartz crossing the road from the opposite side back to the club side after passing the incident makes no sense but it only ‘makes no sense’ if we go with your suggestion that he was initially on the opposite side of the road.

It’s very, very simple. Schwartz crossed from the club side to the opposite side to avoid the incident which was occurring ahead of him on the same side. When he has passed the incidents he crossed back over because that was the side that he needed to be one to get to his destination. The very side that he was on initially until he had to avoid the incident.

Where is the problem? Oh, that’s right, there isn’t one.