An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Tom_Wescott]

Does James Brown's sighting of Overcoat Man prove that the basis of Schwartz's statement was true?

Based on Tom's idea and suggestion; was Overcoat man the same man who Schwartz saw with a pipe?

Overcoat man = Pipeman?


There's a clear height difference, but that's subjective depending on the viewpoint of the observer.


Fascinating

Yes, these are all things I've been arguing for years. I can't say Pipeman and Overcoat Man are one and the same, but they're both wearing a similar coat and are seen standing on the Fairclough side of Berner Street within minutes of each other. I'd say the odds are good they are one. And Overcoat Man is the last man seen with Stride before she was killed

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom. Do we know this for sure? I've read both your wonderful books but cant recall if its a definitely ascertained fact or only a theory(based on facts)

Hello, and thank you for the kind words. There's precious little we know for sure and as far as I'm aware I'm the only person who has suggested the Star report was a police plant. But I have statements regarding the police planting stuff in the press and the editor of the Star complains days later that the police had used his paper in some way. I apologize, but I don't have the research to hand and my memory is not great. But I wasn't offering wild speculation. You'll recall Robert Anderson was planting fake stuff in the press in connection with the Parnell commission. I suspect The Star report was his idea. When you read the report, this is the only thing that makes sense. Schwartz was kept under wraps and it was arranged he wouldn't appear at the inquest, and yet a Star reporter is invited to interview Schwartz and his 'friend' the interpreter, who of course told the reporter what the police asked him to say. The end result is a report in which Pipeman has a knife and BS Man (who the police suspected of murder) was not so bad at all. The hope was to get Pipeman to come forward to clear himself and state he did not have a knife, and to put BS Man at ease to perhaps come forward to point the finger at Pipeman, or at least to not get spooked and leave the area.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lewis C]

There seem to be a lot of instances in this case where there are characters we don't know much about. Sometimes folks draw conclusions about little being known about Israel Schwartz, for example. To me it seems so common that we don't know much about someone that it shouldn't be surprising, and we can't conclude much from our lack of knowledge about someone.

[New Waterloo]

Yes fair point Lewis C. I suppose I am trying to be inventive without with what we have. The 3/4 I mention are within a very short physical distance from Stride within the last 15 minutes or less of her being killed. Browns overcoat man, Parcelman, Bs man and Pipeman are all within striking distance shortly before she is killed. They are in the very street where she was. Maybe I am just confusing things. They all disappear after the disturbance but Parcelman disappeared a little earlier. It really is a muddle
NW

[Lewis C]

What do the four men physically closest to Stride have in common?

They are unidentified.

i know the case is riddled with coincidences but it does seem a bit odd that we know nothing of them. Yes the four may have been three with overcoat man being pipeman.

It is suggested that the police spoke to pipeman but if he was Browns overcoat man surely this would be a major development and would have been released to the press to stop speculation etc

what if the 3/4 unknowns were working together and Schwartz stumbled onto something. Maybe ridiculous but worth mentioning I think.

NW

There are 3 other men claimed to have been seen with Stride. We could call them Pub Man, Marshall's Man, and Grapes Man. All of them are unidentified too.

[GBinOz]

The Star account was written by the police for the purpose of drawing PM and BSM out. It was intentionally misleading. The biographical details about Schwartz may be accurate, though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Is this based on any factual information, or entirely on speculation?

[New Waterloo]

Dare I suggest robbing Diemschutz when he returned home with his days takings?
NW

[New Waterloo]

What do the four men physically closest to Stride have in common?

They are unidentified.

i know the case is riddled with coincidences but it does seem a bit odd that we know nothing of them. Yes the four may have been three with overcoat man being pipeman.

It is suggested that the police spoke to pipeman but if he was Browns overcoat man surely this would be a major development and would have been released to the press to stop speculation etc

what if the 3/4 unknowns were working together and Schwartz stumbled onto something. Maybe ridiculous but worth mentioning I think.

NW

[Fogelpa]

The Star account was written by the police for the purpose of drawing PM and BSM out. It was intentionally misleading.

Hi Tom. Do we know this for sure? I've read both your wonderful books but cant recall if its a definitely ascertained fact or only a theory(based on facts)

[Tom_Wescott]

I would say that Pipeman is the least likely of those four to be her killer, unless Pipeman and Overcoat Man are the same man. The Star account is the only account that has him with a kniufe.

The Star account was written by the police for the purpose of drawing PM and BSM out. It was intentionally misleading. The biographical details about Schwartz may be accurate, though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lewis C]

We have four men most likely to have been the killer of Stride. I believe this based on the evidence and statements we have.

Parcel man is seen with Stride, Overcoat man is seen with Stride, BS man is seen with Stride and Pipe man is seen moving towards Stride possibly with a knife but moving in her direction. All very close to the club within minutes of her death.

NW

I would say that Pipeman is the least likely of those four to be her killer, unless Pipeman and Overcoat Man are the same man. The Star account is the only account that has him with a kniufe.

[New Waterloo]

We have four men most likely to have been the killer of Stride. I believe this based on the evidence and statements we have.

Parcel man is seen with Stride, Overcoat man is seen with Stride, BS man is seen with Stride and Pipe man is seen moving towards Stride possibly with a knife but moving in her direction. All very close to the club within minutes of her death.

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

Does James Brown's sighting of Overcoat Man prove that the basis of Schwartz's statement was true?

Based on Tom's idea and suggestion; was Overcoat man the same man who Schwartz saw with a pipe?

Overcoat man = Pipeman?


There's a clear height difference, but that's subjective depending on the viewpoint of the observer.


Fascinating

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am becoming a little concerned that our traditional opposing viewpoint has run its course and we are becoming more aligned to a common consensus. I view the clock alignment question and the question of whether Stride was thrown to the ground or merely overbalanced when the grip of her counterpart was relaxed. Did one of us blink?

Are you getting worried George?

[GBinOz]

Fair point George.

I am becoming a little concerned that our traditional opposing viewpoint has run its course and we are becoming more aligned to a common consensus. I view the clock alignment question and the question of whether Stride was thrown to the ground or merely overbalanced when the grip of her counterpart was relaxed. Did one of us blink?