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A closer look at Eagle and Lave

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  • A closer look at Eagle and Lave

    At about 12:45am, September 30, Israel Schwartz claimed to see a man stop at the gates of Dutfield's Yard, and speak to a woman who Schwartz later identified as the murder victim.

    Schwartz witnessed the man assault the woman, and then crossed the road, and at that point he noticed another man who was lighting a pipe. Moments later he sensed he was being followed by this man, and Schwartz began to run. The man with a pipe ran in his direction. Schwartz ran as far as one of the railway arches, but the man did not follow so far.

    At about 12:40, Morris Eagle returned to the Berner street club, having walked his lady friend home. He told the coroner:

    I am a traveler and a member of the Socialist club. I was at the club on Saturday night, and did not leave till after the discussion. I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

    At a similar time, another member of the club named Joseph Lave, told the press the following:

    I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

    Given a discovery time of about 1am, this places Lave out on the street at 12:45, and possibly beyond.

    The purpose of this thread is to discuss the following notion:

    Who else but Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave, could Israel Schwartz have effectively been talking about, when referring to the first and second man in his statement?

    To suppose otherwise, while still regarding Schwartz's story as true, is to suppose that about 5 minutes after Eagle's return, the situation with Eagle and Lave was replicated. Once again a man reached the gateway, and once again a man was out on the street, seemingly going nowhere in particular. It's just that this time, the victim happened to be standing in the gateway, unknown to anyone inside the club. What are the chances? Combine this with the rather astonishing situation of no one outside the incident claiming to have seen or heard anything that would support Schwartz's claims, and it would be fair to ask; who was lying - Schwartz, or someone(s) else?

    Swanson: Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other.

    But they might have been, and it would hardly be a stretch to suppose that Eagle and Lave were known to each other.

    According to a press report:

    Morris Eagle, one of the members of the club, left Berner street about 12 o'clock, and after taking his sweetheart home returned to the club at about twenty minutes to one with the intention of having supper. He walked up the yard and entered the club by the side entrance but neither saw nor heard anything to make him suspect foul play was going on. Of course he might have passed the body in the darkness, but the probability is that he would have stumbled over it if the murder had been committed before that time.

    At the inquest, he said:

    Coroner: Can you say if deceased was lying there when you went in?
    Eagle: It was rather dark and I cannot say for certain if anything was there or not. I do not remember whether I met any one in Berner-street when I returned to the yard, neither do I remember seeing any one in the yard.

    According to Schwartz, the second man had a clay pipe in his hand. According to the same press report as above:

    Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air, and for five minutes or more he strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

    So when did Liz Stride arrive at the gateway, I wonder?

    What is interesting about Lave, is that his timing, location, and behaviour, is a close match to Pipeman, who also seems to be going nowhere in particular, when first spotted by Schwartz. With the exception of the pipe, that is. Yet it does not seem from my reading of older and newer Berner street threads, that anyone has ever wondered out loud; could Joseph Lave have been Pipeman? Unfortunately we don't have a physical description for Lave. The situation is the same for Eagle, as far as I know. Except that in Eagle's case, we do have an artists sketch to compare to Schwartz's description.

    first man, who threw the woman down: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	morriseagle.jpg Views:	0 Size:	27.6 KB ID:	786450

    Casting Eagle as the broad-shouldered man, and Lave as Pipeman, in my opinion helps in understanding Wess's comments to the Echo journalist:

    In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

    He says the man who gave chase is not a member of the club, but he cannot remember the man's name. Convenient, much? What is more fundamental than that question, is how Wess knows of the Schwartz incident at all. The 'grapevine' theory, which is not supported by any evidence, relies on getting information about the incident into the club, past the police who guard the entrances, and past the paywall set up by Wess himself. It also has to supply the name of the man who have chase. Astonishingly, Wess seems to have known more about Pipeman, than the police did - even days later.

    The 'switch' must also be considered. The man pursued was perceived as being the murderer, by unidentified members of the public. Obviously that was not how Schwartz described the same event. It seems Wess wanted to point the finger at the pursued man. Why?

    In contrast to the 'grapevine' or 'Chinese whispers' theory, the theory here is that Eagle, Lave, and Wess tried to hide what had really gone on, on the street, and then Schwartz arrived at Leman street station to give his account. In this theory, Schwartz has no connection with the club, and has no idea who he had seen on the street. Just to be clear, what did go on, on the street, is not part of the theory beyond what Schwartz claimed to have witnessed. So Eagle may have tossed Stride out of the yard, called out to Lave who chases away Schwartz, and then the two men go back into the club. Stride is still alive at this point, or she may not be - that is not part of the theory.

    I also have another theory, again with Eagle as BS man, and Lave as Pipeman, but with Schwartz known to the club - actually a member. This is a more radical and so less likely theory. In this theory, the man pursued never actually comes forward to give a statement. He is chased away and runs off into the darkness, and his identity is now lost to history. Israel Schwartz is a man who pretends to be the man pursued. In his somewhat comical efforts to give himself an orthodox Jewish appearance, he overdoes things and ends up looking to the lads at Leman street, like someone in the theatrical line.

    There is quite a lot more I could add on this subject, but the post would get too long. So just in point form for now:

    * From what direction did Eagle enter Berner street?

    * Whose boots were responsible for the 'measured, heavy tramp'?

    * Could Eagle have been responsible for the call of 'Lipski'?

    * Who is Joseph Lave?

    * Where exactly did Lave go, after having been on the street?

    * Who and what time did James Brown see a couple talking, by the board school?

    * Who, where and when was the couple who spoke to the press, and possibly also to Fanny Mortimer?

    * What happened immediately after the discovery?

    * Who went for police, in what order, and in what directions did they go?

    * What did the police make of Wess's claims, as described in the Echo report?


    There is of course, one very big question that the Eagle and Lave were the men seen by Schwartz theory, leaves unanswered. Did Eagle kill Stride? If yes, why? If not, who did?
    Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 05-25-2022, 03:33 PM.
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

  • #2
    Regards

    Herlock Sholmes

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    • #3
      More witnesses being turned into supposed suspects. Great.

      Comment


      • #4
        What about James Brown's 12:45 am sighting of Stride,"I'm almost certain" it was her and he went to the mortuary, saw her there.Just dismiss it?
        Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
        M. Pacana

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Varqm View Post
          What about James Brown's 12:45 am sighting of Stride,"I'm almost certain" it was her and he went to the mortuary, saw her there.Just dismiss it?
          James Browns sighting wasnt of B.S and stride, and it wasnt at 12.45 AM .
          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Varqm View Post

            What about James Brown's 12:45 am sighting of Stride,"I'm almost certain" it was her and he went to the mortuary, saw her there.Just dismiss it?
            Did I dismiss Brown? I don't see where or how.

            Perhaps Brown's sighting is a good reason for pushing the Schwartz incident back in time, a few minutes or so. What do you think?
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • #7
              James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
              The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.


              Or we could push Browns time back to 12.40 giving time for stride to ditch the man on the corner ,get to the entrance of the yard where B.S turns up to assault her .? Then when
              Schwartz and pipeman leave he follows, persudes , creeps up upon her and slit her throat ?
              'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

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              • #8
                Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                Or we could push Browns time back to 12.40 giving time for stride to ditch the man on the corner ,get to the entrance of the yard where B.S turns up to assault her .?
                Time for Stride to ditch the man? I've got news for you, Fishy ...

                Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                James Browns sighting wasnt of B.S and stride, and it wasnt at 12.45 AM .
                Are you going to explain your sudden change of mind, as to who Brown saw?

                Then when Schwartz and pipeman leave he follows, persudes , creeps up upon her and slit her throat ?
                Follows her where? Into the yard? Stride's boots were level with the swing of the gates, when she was found. That's about 2 yards from where Schwartz claimed to have first seen her.
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  Time for Stride to ditch the man? I've got news for you, Fishy ...



                  Are you going to explain your sudden change of mind, as to who Brown saw?



                  Follows her where? Into the yard? Stride's boots were level with the swing of the gates, when she was found. That's about 2 yards from where Schwartz claimed to have first seen her.
                  Think about what Schwartz saw and then when he left with pipeman following him. Its not hard to see what happen next . Its already been discussed at lengh. i dont need to go over it again
                  'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    * From what direction did Eagle enter Berner street?

                    * Whose boots were responsible for the 'measured, heavy tramp'?
                    The Star's description of the beginning of the incident:

                    When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her.

                    It seems Schwartz did not see the man until he entered Berner street. Perhaps the man had entered the street from the East - the opposite direction to Schwartz, who seems to have turned into Berner street on the club side. Interestingly, supposing that the BS man did enter the street by turning left off Commercial Road, he would have been following the same route that Morris Eagle would take, when walking from his home at 4 New Road*. Eagle said to the press:

                    I frequent the club. I went into it about 12:40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses. After seeing my girl home, I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours. There is no light of any sort in the yard, though there are lights in the street, as there are in every other street. In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

                    So only by chance would Eagle have entered Berner street from the same direction he would take, had he been walking from home. I guess it's possible he did duck home on his way back to the club. By the way, what are the chances that Parcleman's parcel, contained some of the ingredients for the supper that Eagle said he was returning for? Presumably Eagle wasn't going to eat on his own.

                    Regarding the possibility of Eagle being the 'half-tipsy man', perhaps we can guess at Eagle's state of intoxication, from his remark: "In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing."

                    I get the impression that Schwartz was catching up to the half-tipsy man, as he followed him down the street - the man seems to have been walking quite slowly. As Eagle gave a time of about 12:40, and Schwartz gave a time of about 12:45, we have to wonder about who the woman in the following report - presumably Fanny Mortimer - was hearing, right between those times:

                    A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

                    If the time stated in this report is close to accurate, the Schwartz incident cannot have occurred at 12:45 or later. Either it had already occurred, or what Fanny presumed to be the footsteps of a policeman, was actually the slow plod of the half-tipsy man. Either way, Eagle would seem to be the obvious candidate for the broad-shouldered man. Meanwhile, Lave places himself on the street, right in this period.


                    * 4 New Road can be located on the ordinance map. Casebook: Jack the Ripper - 1894 Ordinance Map of Whitechapel Division
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                      Think about what Schwartz saw and then when he left with pipeman following him. Its not hard to see what happen next . Its already been discussed at lengh. i dont need to go over it again
                      It is hard for me to see what happened next - I don't have a crystal ball. However, while I can see Eagle in the role of the BS man, I can't quite see him cutting Stride's throat.

                      I find it interesting that a man would toss a woman of the unfortunate class, out of the yard, having earlier that night chaired a meeting entitled "Why Jews should be Socialists". It does reek of hypocrisy, although to be fair, it was probably just a sign of the times.

                      FYI: An interesting thread on Morris Eagle, at JTR Forums.
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        The Star's description of the beginning of the incident:

                        When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her.

                        It seems Schwartz did not see the man until he entered Berner street. Perhaps the man had entered the street from the East - the opposite direction to Schwartz, who seems to have turned into Berner street on the club side. Interestingly, supposing that the BS man did enter the street by turning left off Commercial Road, he would have been following the same route that Morris Eagle would take, when walking from his home at 4 New Road*. Eagle said to the press:

                        I frequent the club. I went into it about 12:40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses. After seeing my girl home, I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours. There is no light of any sort in the yard, though there are lights in the street, as there are in every other street. In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

                        So only by chance would Eagle have entered Berner street from the same direction he would take, had he been walking from home. I guess it's possible he did duck home on his way back to the club. By the way, what are the chances that Parcleman's parcel, contained some of the ingredients for the supper that Eagle said he was returning for? Presumably Eagle wasn't going to eat on his own.

                        Regarding the possibility of Eagle being the 'half-tipsy man', perhaps we can guess at Eagle's state of intoxication, from his remark: "In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing."

                        I get the impression that Schwartz was catching up to the half-tipsy man, as he followed him down the street - the man seems to have been walking quite slowly. As Eagle gave a time of about 12:40, and Schwartz gave a time of about 12:45, we have to wonder about who the woman in the following report - presumably Fanny Mortimer - was hearing, right between those times:

                        A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

                        If the time stated in this report is close to accurate, the Schwartz incident cannot have occurred at 12:45 or later. Either it had already occurred, or what Fanny presumed to be the footsteps of a policeman, was actually the slow plod of the half-tipsy man. Either way, Eagle would seem to be the obvious candidate for the broad-shouldered man. Meanwhile, Lave places himself on the street, right in this period.


                        * 4 New Road can be located on the ordinance map. Casebook: Jack the Ripper - 1894 Ordinance Map of Whitechapel Division


                        ''IF '' there the problem , Schwartz time is just as likely to be correct as any witness is with their estimated times . Whats of paramount importants tho is this, He is the only person to witness the attack on Stride at 12.45 am . Which ,as ive yet to see, any one witness dispute what he saw at the same time . Swanson and Abberline both ,as well as high ranking officals didnt seem to have to much trouble believing his statement at the time ,yet for some reason 134 years its now a problem ? .. Not likely. .

                        'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

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