An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[GBinOz]

If I may be permitted to present a scenario based on nothing more than speculation and conjecture:

Eagle leaves the club between 12:30 and 12:45 to accompany his lady to her home. Eagle married Kate Kopelansky on 23 Dec 1888, who lived at her parent's home at 183 Whitechapel Road. Presuming this is the lady in question, the return trip to this address is approximately 30 minutes. Eagle states that "I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club". This provides Eagle with a little time to indulge in some libations on the way back and appear a little tipsy as he proceeds down Berner St on his return to the club.

He encounters Stride standing in the gateway awaiting the return of Parcelman from an urgent visit to the Loo in the yard. Presuming her to be there for immoral purposes he tries to encourage her to leave, but she breaks free of his grasp and falls on the ground. Schwartz, who is walking behind Eagle, observes a presumed domestic, crosses the road and walks towards the intersection with Fairclough St. By this time Stride is objecting to Eagle's interference, knowing that Parcelman will return at any moment, and informs Eagle in no uncertain terms. Eagle sees that two men are observing the proceeding and shouts at them, after which Pipeman approaches Schwartz, who is then spooked and leaves "incontinently".

Pipeman then approaches Eagle who desists in his objection to Stride's continued presence and enters the club by the side door. So is Spooner actually Pipeman, and offers to accompany Stride to the safety of the club and kills her in transit. Or is Spooner actually Parcelman, and Stride is the mentioned girl friend, and he returns from the Loo and kills Stride. Spooner is interrupted and retreats down Fairclough, but when he hears Diemshitz + one running down Fairclough he confronts Diemshitz and accompanies him back to the yard.

Arriving at the yard he goes straight to Stride's body to make sure that there is no evidence that could incriminate him, such as the grapes, which he removes if he is Parcelman.

I find myself at a loss as to why he would say that he left after helping close the gates but then add that he had been examined by Phillips who wasn't yet there.

An unlikely story, perhaps, but there it is.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I struggle to see your point here. Spooner says he left after helping Lamb close the gates, but not before Phillips had examined him. The gates were closed when Blackwell arrived and Phillips arrived after Blackwell. How could he have been examined by Phillips 20-30 minutes before Phillips arrival? The charitable view is that Spooner was confused. The realistic view is that he was lying. The wonderous view is that why was this was not observed at the time.

My point is that at best, Spooner seems to have forgotten about those 20-30 minutes and his examination by the police and doctor, and didn't recall until Reid reminded him. That period may have even been longer, depending on how long the search of the yard and houses took (which preceded the personal examinations). At worst, Spooner was in the yard for hours before leaving. It does seem odd, and I'm pretty much with you - maybe he was confused (drunk?), but we also have to consider his honesty.

I lean toward him lying about his purpose for being on the street. He wanted to hide his association with the vigilance committee, for security or other reasons.

The hours of work varied. At their height, the Mile End Vigilance Committee had 50 men on their books 12 of these men an intimate knowledge of the area and were chosen to lead these patrols. Patrols were noted, routes planned and anything suspicious pencilled in a notebook. Beats were undertaken as soon as the men finished their working day. These beats were finnished around 4 or 5am, in some cases when day broke. Now some of these men had a days work, these chaps tended to finish earlier, however those who could commit to a daybreak finished did so. These men equipped themselves with lanterns, sticks and something the Police never had, rubber soled boots.

PC Lamb: I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman.

What did Spooner see on entering the yard, supposedly without a lantern?

Spooner: I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street. I saw a woman lying just inside the gate.

Perhaps Spooner saw what he was expecting to see, but he couldn't have known where to expect to see her.

[GBinOz]

Are we at the stage where we have to consider the possibility of Spooner as a suspect?

A claimed girlfriend that no one claims to having seen. A person that enters upon a crime scene and immediately presumes to handle the body. A man who claims to have left the crime scene after having assisted the police to close the gates, claiming this was after being examined by a doctor who is 20-30 minutes away from being present at the time.

For consideration.

[GBinOz]

I understand that point of view, but how does it seem when we look at the Daily Telegraph?

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

That's it? No, but look who steps in now ...

Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes. And had been searched? - Yes. And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.

On the Friday, Reid said: A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves.

Were the 28 people allowed to go one-by-one, or all at once? If the later, Spooner left hours after he had closed the gates. Otherwise, he might have been one of the first to be interrogated and allowed to leave.

Blackwell: My assistant was present all the time. Dr. Phillips arrived from 20 minutes to half an hour after my arrival, but I did not notice the exact time.
The CORONER. - Could you see there was a woman there when you went in?
Witness. - Yes. The doors were closed when I arrived.

I struggle to see your point here. Spooner says he left after helping Lamb close the gates, but not before Phillips had examined him. The gates were closed when Blackwell arrived and Phillips arrived after Blackwell. How could he have been examined by Phillips 20-30 minutes before Phillips arrival? The charitable view is that Spooner was confused. The realistic view is that he was lying. The wonderous view is that why was this was not observed at the time.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wouldn't conclude in that direction. Spooner is testifying under oath that he left after both having assisted Lamb to close the gates and being examined by Phillips. This is inconsistent with the evidence and would have to be considered as, at least, being careless with the truth.

I understand that point of view, but how does it seem when we look at the Daily Telegraph?

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

That's it? No, but look who steps in now ...

Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes. And had been searched? - Yes. And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.

On the Friday, Reid said: A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves.

Were the 28 people allowed to go one-by-one, or all at once? If the later, Spooner left hours after he had closed the gates. Otherwise, he might have been one of the first to be interrogated and allowed to leave.

[GBinOz]

Good point. There is a hint that Spooner was allowed to leave early. In the past I've suggested that that was because Spooner was part of the WVC. The notion wasn't well accepted, so presumably Spooner was locked in the yard for hours, like everyone else.

I wouldn't conclude in that direction. Spooner is testifying under oath that he left after both having assisted Lamb to close the gates and being examined by Phillips. This is inconsistent with the evidence and would have to be considered as, at least, being careless with the truth.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Daily News 3 Oct:
Edward Spooner - As soon as Police-constable Lamb arrived, I went away, after helping him to shut the gates. Before I left I was searched and gave my name and address, and was examined by Dr. Phillips.

"I', not "we". This doesn't quite add up as the gates were closed by Lamb before Blackwell or Phillips arrived.

Good point. There is a hint that Spooner was allowed to leave early. In the past I've suggested that that was because Spooner was part of the WVC. The notion wasn't well accepted, so presumably Spooner was locked in the yard for hours, like everyone else.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny and the young woman were not locked in the yard. They were outside the gates talking to reporters. Mr. Harris was also not in the yard. Spooner's girlfriend is nowhere to be seen. Why do you suppose the whole neighborhood got themselves locked into Dutfield's Yard?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Being locked in the yard doesn't preclude anyone being interviewed by the press during the day. Diemschitz, Kozebrodski and Eagle were all locked in the yard, and each of them spoke to the press, so I don't see why people like Mortimer and Harris couldn't have managed the same feat.

Why would Mr Harris run around to the yard but not go in? Not saying he definitely did, but it's quite possible.

[GBinOz]

What non-members of the club went to Dutfield's Yard and got locked into it for hours, while the police were conducting searches? Edward Spooner is a given..

Daily News 3 Oct:
Edward Spooner - As soon as Police-constable Lamb arrived, I went away, after helping him to shut the gates. Before I left I was searched and gave my name and address, and was examined by Dr. Phillips.

"I', not "we". This doesn't quite add up as the gates were closed by Lamb before Blackwell or Phillips arrived.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fanny and the young woman were not locked in the yard. They were outside the gates talking to reporters. Mr. Harris was also not in the yard. Spooner's girlfriend is nowhere to be seen. Why do you suppose the whole neighborhood got themselves locked into Dutfield's Yard?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Coroner: How many people were there in the yard?
PC Lamb: I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

What non-members of the club went to Dutfield's Yard and got locked into it for hours, while the police were conducting searches? Edward Spooner is a given. Fanny Mortimer, the board school couple, Spooner's girlfriend and Mr Harris, are candidates. Presumably there were conversations going on then - we don't necessarily need to wait until after sunrise when the reporters were around.

Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

I presume Mr Harris told Spooner this, when they got to the yard.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not sure that it has been established that her beau wasn't there, but even if just the girlfriend was there, the point of my question was whether the time and place of Fanny's talk with the girlfriend was the murder scene. It had been previously suggested that the woman Fanny talked to was Spooner's girlfriend, and also that Spooner's girlfriend didn't attend the murder scene, and if I have my facts right, then there's no way that both of those can be true.

Where else would Fanny have spoken to the young woman except outside the gates where the crowd had gathered and the reporters came swarming? They were both in their homes in Berner Street until the cries of murder which brought them out. Spooner's girlfriend has nothing to do with anything.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing in the part that I quoted anything that says what side of the street he was on before or after he crossed the road.

Imagine, if you will, that Brown is a chicken, but instead of asking why he crossed the road, you're asking if he crossed the road. Now, imagine the answer is a resounding yes. As Stride and her man were standing on the board school side and the chandler shop was opposite it and catercorner, and we know Brown was all about those eats, in order to cross the street away from the chandler shop to walk along the kerb near which Stride and her man were standing, he must have first visited the chandler shop. Ergo, Brown saw his couple on the way back from the chandler's shop.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lewis C]

Fanny talked to the young woman. Her beau had long gone. And this young couple walked along Commercial Road, not along Fairclough Street. Brown could not have mistaken Edward Spooner and his girl as Spooner was standing pretty much under Brown's window. Stride also had quite a distinctive face and her face is all Brown got a good look at.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm not sure that it has been established that her beau wasn't there, but even if just the girlfriend was there, the point of my question was whether the time and place of Fanny's talk with the girlfriend was the murder scene. It had been previously suggested that the woman Fanny talked to was Spooner's girlfriend, and also that Spooner's girlfriend didn't attend the murder scene, and if I have my facts right, then there's no way that both of those can be true.

[Lewis C]

The chandler shop was on the opposite side of the street of Fairclough, so why would he be on the side of the street of the shop and then cross it to go to the other side? It only makes sense for him to cross the street (from the chandler shop side) to go to the board school side if it's after he's left the chandler shop. Having that why, you've underlined why it's important to draw from as many contemporary sources as possible. When it comes to the Stride inquest, they didn't have their best man on the job. Other newspapers were more thorough in their coverage, which is why I quoted from several in Ripper Confidential and again on this thread. Those make it abundantly clear what happened with Brown. But even the times excerpt you posted has Brown leaving his house 'about 12:45' and the sighting occurring some time later. This was not new information when I published it in 2018 but had been ignored by several authors wanting to prop up BS Man as Stride's killer because they believed he physically resembled their suspect the best.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Sorry, but I'm not seeing in the part that I quoted anything that says what side of the street he was on before or after he crossed the road.