An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're right - I use the evidence as both a basis for and a constraint on my theories. This is as it should be but is in contrast to those who see the evidence as obstacles to be 'worked around'.



I don't want the evidence to 'appear' anything - I want it to speak for itself and not be spun to keep it compatible with truth preferences.

So…as I’ve always suspected and you believe that every time quoted should be taken as set-in-stone.

As long as that’s now established we can all understand the reason behind your thinking.

[Tom_Wescott]

Times: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Morning Advertiser: I went in doors about midnight. I did not hear anything till I heard murder being called in the street just after one o’clock on the Sunday morning.

Insightful that no one bothered to check the press reports, or if they did, refrained from posting.

What might the women in the kitchen - behind that partially open door - have heard had there been an incident at the gateway, if Marshall could hear murder being called in the streets, while inside and block away?

We don't know when Marshall heard or who he heard it from. A crowd gathered rather quickly and word would have spread. The only ones who didn't hear about it right away were the constables on patrol in the area. Smith heard not a thing and only figured out something was wrong when he returned on his beat to find two constables and Spooner there. Blackwell's assistant had already been summoned and arrived right after Smith. Yet Marshall at #64 heard it. Weird. But that's why the Ripper selected Berner Street and Mitre Square. They were outside the hot zones. Same reason he moved into Bethnal Green after Tabram. After the double event the police figured this out and had areas like Castle Alley more carefully watched.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

After Pipeman left how long would we require as a minimum for BS man to have left and another man to arrive, kill Stride and leave? A minute, two?

As you're already 3 minutes short without another man arriving, that extra minute or two minimum is a problem on top of a problem.

I'll leave it to you and c.d. to discuss the maximum.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Of course that’s what you want because it limits the circumstances which helps fuel your thinking.

You're right - I use the evidence as both a basis for and a constraint on my theories. This is as it should be but is in contrast to those who see the evidence as obstacles to be 'worked around'.

When people give statements they don’t usually bother to describe the exact circumstances as this woman clearly didn’t. But we know that there was singing…we know that there was a downstairs room too…we know that she wasn’t the only person working at the club….we know that the incident occurred out on the street. And yet you want the circumstance to appear as if this woman was alone in a funeral parlour.

I don't want the evidence to 'appear' anything - I want it to speak for itself and not be spun to keep it compatible with truth preferences.

[Herlock Sholmes]

These people do ...

Eagle: If 15 minutes elapsed from the first man's departure and the Ripper's arrival, at what time do you suppose I tried the front door of the club? There was no woman in the gateway when I arrived back.

Mortimer: I didn't see any of this. When do you suppose I was at my doorstep?

Goldstein: I didn't see any of this either. When do you suppose I was walking though Berner St?

Brown: I'm almost certain I saw the deceased on my way home from the chandler's shop. Where do you suppose Stride was then, if not at the board school corner?

Diemschitz: I got home right on one o'clock. I didn't see any man leaving the yard, so I presume you suppose the Ripper had already left by then?

Kozebrodski: When I went into the yard with Mr Diemschitz, I saw the dead woman by candlelight. Her blood had already flowed down to the side door of the club. I think the murderer must have left a few minutes before Mr Diemschitz arrived back from the market. Do you agree?

After Pipeman left how long would we require as a minimum for BS man to have left and another man to arrive, kill Stride and leave? A minute, two?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Probably this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

Of course that’s what you want because it limits the circumstances which helps fuel your thinking. When people give statements they don’t usually bother to describe the exact circumstances as this woman clearly didn’t. But we know that there was singing…we know that there was a downstairs room too…we know that she wasn’t the only person working at the club….we know that the incident occurred out on the street. And yet you want the circumstance to appear as if this woman was alone in a funeral parlour.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Easy to say. Let's see the timeline.

Why do we need a timeline? If we have Pipeman disappearing around the corner how long would be required? At that moment another man might have been walking south on Berner Street. Stride tells BS man that she wasn’t going with him and he leaves. Twenty seconds have passed since Pipeman left the scene. Twenty seconds later the man arrives. The man goes to Stride in the gateway and he cuts her throat. How long in total after Pipeman left? A minute?

Obviously we have to consider that we might assume an argument ensued before he cut her throat so could that argument have occurred without anyone hearing? If the guy had a short fuse and was angry as he turned into Berner Street then he sees Stride with another man maybe he decided that this was the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back?’ I don’t know but I’m not proposing this. I’m just suggesting that something like this is possible.

Extremely unlikely that some man gets angry and decides to punish her by cutting her throat. That leaves you with BS Man and his red flags. That leaves me wondering if we have the true story.

I wonder how many times in history a man has become angry with a woman and cut her throat? I don’t see why it’s so unlikely. Just over 2 weeks after marrying Sarah Brider, James Kelly slashed her throat with a knife (although it was 3 days before she died.) A man with a worsening temper, obsessively jealous etc.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Really? The women were in a kitchen, probably all talking and focusing on each others talk, there were men singing songs in a room upstairs, there was a downstairs room were there probably men talking, and door was ajar and outside there were three not very loud ‘screams’ from out on the pavement and a man calling “Lipski” to a man that was a few yards away. Marshall is in a house at 1am where it would likely have been quiet, if not totally silent, and 40 or 50 yards away two men are yelling “murder” at the top of their voices in the hope of getting a Constable to arrive.

Probably this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hello Herlock,

I have never been able to warm to the idea of the B.S. man being her killer. Too many red flags for me especially the fact that he would have had to have done so after being seen by two men. Not a smart move. And I have always thought that the cachous indicated she was at ease and that the B.S. man had left.

As for time -- I think a 15 minute window from the time the B.S. man left till the time the Ripper arrived on the scene is reasonable although that does not leave a lot of margin for error.

Time for the Ripper to arrive on the scene: 5 minutes

Time for him to approach Stride, talk to her and conclude a deal: 3 minutes

Time for entering the passageway and killing her: 3 minutes

So that is roughly eleven minutes out of an allotted fifteen. Seems enough although admittedly those are all approximations and guesses. Anybody else want to way in?

These people do ...

Eagle: If 15 minutes elapsed from the first man's departure and the Ripper's arrival, at what time do you suppose I tried the front door of the club? There was no woman in the gateway when I arrived back.

Mortimer: I didn't see any of this. When do you suppose I was at my doorstep?

Goldstein: I didn't see any of this either. When do you suppose I was walking though Berner St?

Brown: I'm almost certain I saw the deceased on my way home from the chandler's shop. Where do you suppose Stride was then, if not at the board school corner?

Diemschitz: I got home right on one o'clock. I didn't see any man leaving the yard, so I presume you suppose the Ripper had already left by then?

Kozebrodski: When I went into the yard with Mr Diemschitz, I saw the dead woman by candlelight. Her blood had already flowed down to the side door of the club. I think the murderer must have left a few minutes before Mr Diemschitz arrived back from the market. Do you agree?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Times: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Morning Advertiser: I went in doors about midnight. I did not hear anything till I heard murder being called in the street just after one o’clock on the Sunday morning.

Insightful that no one bothered to check the press reports, or if they did, refrained from posting.

What might the women in the kitchen - behind that partially open door - have heard had there been an incident at the gateway, if Marshall could hear murder being called in the streets, while inside and block away?

Really? The women were in a kitchen, probably all talking and focusing on each others talk, there were men singing songs in a room upstairs, there was a downstairs room were there probably men talking, and door was ajar and outside there were three not very loud ‘screams’ from out on the pavement and a man calling “Lipski” to a man that was a few yards away. Marshall is in a house at 1am where it would likely have been quiet, if not totally silent, and 40 or 50 yards away two men are yelling “murder” at the top of their voices in the hope of getting a Constable to arrive.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have to agree c.d.

Easy to say. Let's see the timeline.

In my opinion it’s fair to say that BS man is very strongly the likeliest killer but it’s still possible for another person to have killed her no matter how unlikely it may seem. If BS man walked away with Stride still alive we would only need a short gap of time between that point and the arrival of Diemschitz. Another scenario (and by no means am I promoting this idea - just that it’s possible) - what if Stride had agreed to meet someone in the gateway, BS man arrived and tried to get her to go with him (resulting in her ending up on the ground) but she refused and he went away. The man that she was supposed to meet was walking down Berner Street and had seen the two together. He gets jealous: “who was that?” or maybe he knew him as another potential suitor. In anger he cuts her throat. Or maybe she was pestering a married man from the club so she was waiting for him to emerge. The incident occurred, BS man left, then the man emerged from the club to be hassled by Stride. He loses his temper and cuts her throat.

Just possibles. However unlikely they might seem.

Extremely unlikely that some man gets angry and decides to punish her by cutting her throat. That leaves you with BS Man and his red flags. That leaves me wondering if we have the true story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Marshall said he 'heard about the murder shortly after one o'clock'. That's all he said. EVERYONE heard about the murder after one o'clock. Even PC Smith eventually figured out something was amiss on his beat.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Times: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Morning Advertiser: I went in doors about midnight. I did not hear anything till I heard murder being called in the street just after one o’clock on the Sunday morning.

Insightful that no one bothered to check the press reports, or if they did, refrained from posting.

What might the women in the kitchen - behind that partially open door - have heard had there been an incident at the gateway, if Marshall could hear murder being called in the streets, while inside and block away?

[New Waterloo]

I think suggestions like Herlock.s about drunken horseplay are good because they are open minded. Schwartz would have seen what he did, which is obvious but its the interpretation of Schwartz or the officer/s speaking to him which is problematic.

Herlock importantly sticks to the evidence in Schwartz statement.

In a way though we are in the same situation as the officer who first spoke to Schwartz. We ask ourselves what is going on? Answers on a post card to ......

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stride didn’t ‘scream’ loudly which might indicate that she was terrified for her life (although regular beatings from clients may have dulled her sense of fear)

To me, that indicates the exact opposite. I see it as more indicative of surprise than fear.

c.d.

That should have read “..wasn’t terrified for her life..” Sorry, I should have checked before posting.

I agree. Surprise, annoyance, anger, irritation.

I have wondered in the past whether it might have been drunken horseplay? Or whether BS man said something like “come on, why don’t you come with me, you’ll be alright with me,” then he pulls her but pulls her hand free and falls. An “aargh” as she fell. An “ouch” as she landed, then an “idiot!.” Without understanding the words Schwartz might have misunderstood the situation.

[c.d.]

Stride didn’t ‘scream’ loudly which might indicate that she was terrified for her life (although regular beatings from clients may have dulled her sense of fear)

To me, that indicates the exact opposite. I see it as more indicative of surprise than fear.

c.d.