An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Possibly this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

If you insist (the emboldened words are my own comments):


Daily News, Oct 2nd

Mrs. Deimschitz, the stewardess of the club, says:-Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning (So how long had she been there? Had she been elsewhere in the club and just entered the kitchen close to 1.00?) I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members (so she would have been talking to customers) who were singing upstairs (as I said). Up to then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper……..I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave. (Obviously she is referring to the yard and not out on the pavement which was where the incident took place)

Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

Nothing about the two statements above suggests that those in the kitchen couldn’t possibly have failed to hear any noises from the street. Clearly, because they were talking about a woman being killed, they were considering fairly loud screams which we know from Schwartz didn’t occur.

And of course….Stride was definitely killed….and she was definitely killed sometime between 12.40 and 1.00….and she was definitely killed in Dutfield’s Yard….and definitely no one from inside the club heard this murder (so would you deduce that the murder occurred elsewhere?)……and yet you think it impossible that people couldn’t have failed to have heard an incident out on the street which would have been comprised of three not very loud exclamations and the word ‘Lipski.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that some caution needs to be exercised in assuming that named characters didn't see other named characters.

Eagle: "I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses.".

Lave: "He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.".

Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.".

Letchford: "I passed through the street at half-past 12 and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual".

The common theme is that witnesses did not see anything or anyone that could be considered as unusual or suspicious. Given that they could not know in advance what was about to happen, many people might have been seen without being noticed. As Eagle testified at the inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

So proposing times based on who saw, or didn't see, who may not in fact be altogether justified.

Fair point George.

[New Waterloo]

I think if parcelman or the man she was with earlier in the pub or in fact anyone of her contacts that night was JTR then there were ample opportunities to kill her in another more quiet location. Alley ways, other yards, passageways. Even I imagine quieter streets.

There seems no logical reason for choosing the club yard other than to make a point. In fact there were alleyways within a few yards of the club.

I mean think about it. Its just to active of a location. The only other reason is if he got a buzz out of perhaps getting caught, but that doesn't work with some of the murders. After all he killed at night to ensure that he wasn't so easily caught I would think.

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A strange point.

The women in the kitchen said that they heard nothing unusual; nothing that gave them any reason to stop and wonder if something untoward was going on. They were in a kitchen focused on doing whatever it was that they were doing; possibly going in and out. They would likely have been talking; maybe laughing and joking which wouldn’t be ideal for homing in on sounds coming from the street. They had men in the upstairs room singing songs that could be heard from the street. There was also a downstairs room so there was possibly men talking in there too. And you are somehow surprised that they didn’t hear or notice a woman making three not very loud sounds and a man shouting one word at a man who was just a few yards away.

If it surprises you that these women heard nothing them I’m afraid that you are easily surprised. You appear to find everyday occurrences remarkable. Things that we are all aware of as occurring day in, day out all around us you view as a miracle.

Possibly this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

[GBinOz]

Eagle didn’t mention seeing Lave or the couple across the street so the likeliest is that by the time that he returned Lave had gone back inside the club and that the couple had moved on and were out of sight.

I think that some caution needs to be exercised in assuming that named characters didn't see other named characters.

Eagle: "I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses.".

Lave: "He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.".

Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.".

Letchford: "I passed through the street at half-past 12 and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual".

The common theme is that witnesses did not see anything or anyone that could be considered as unusual or suspicious. Given that they could not know in advance what was about to happen, many people might have been seen without being noticed. As Eagle testified at the inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

So proposing times based on who saw, or didn't see, who may not in fact be altogether justified.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Before I get accused of inventing characters “the PC. Schwartz” is an error. I don’t know how I managed it but I did.

It should read “..that PC Smith” of course.

Unless Schwartz was working under cover

No…we won’t go there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As Andrew finds Israel Schwartz such a fly in the ripperological ointment let’s delete him for now. Schwartz has left the building. Let’s just go through the likely scenarios without him.

We can be entirely certain the PC. Schwartz passed along Berner Street and we have no reason to believe that he invented his sighting of the man and woman but there are two things that we can’t be entirely certain of though. One is the exact time that he’d passed although he estimated between 12.30-12.35, if he wasn’t actually within that range we can feel confident that he wouldn’t have been far out, and although he was confident that the woman was Stride, and that we have no reason to question his trustworthiness, I think that we should allow for the possibility, however small, that he could have been mistaken. Anyone can make a mistake.

Joseph Lave is the worst of witnesses because the versions of what he did that night vary from newspaper to newspaper but if he was actually there then all that we can say is that he spent time in the yard and came out to the pavement and looked into the street. Although we don’t know how long he was looking out onto the street for we get the impression that it can’t have been for long when we consider what he didn’t see. He didn’t see Smith, the couple (surely he’d have mentioned them?) Eagle returning, Fanny Mortimer, Liz Stride or her killer.

Morris Eagle said that he’d returned to the club at around 12.40 after taking his girlfriend home. We have no way of knowing if the police checked out his story but that fact that it was easily checkable gives us a level of confidence that he did what he said that he did. As we can’t check his time against other times though we have to make allowances of course (much as this blasphemy might offend certain persons). Eagle didn’t mention seeing Lave or the couple across the street so the likeliest is that by the time that he returned Lave had gone back inside the club and that the couple had moved on and were out of sight.

Then we have the problematical Fanny Mortimer. We have no reason to question her honesty although he memory/judgment might have been less reliable than she herself believed. She said that she had been on her doorstep for ‘nearly the whole time’ between 12.30 and 1.00 but this is shown to have been untrue when we list what she didn’t see - PC. Smith, the couple, Lave, Eagle, Stride and her killer. She certainly saw Leon Goldstein but we don’t even know what time he passed. So how long might she actually have been on her doorstep? The evidence only ‘proves’ a minute or two which is the estimated time for Goldstein to pass but we have to assume that she was being honest when she estimated her ‘nearly the whole time,’ so I’d suggest that she spent somewhere around 15 minutes and just misjudged it as longer (perhaps after mistaking another’s footsteps for those of the Constable that she was used to seeing/hearing closer to 12.30.)

So where does this leave us. In one scenario we would have the killer and Stride arriving at the yard (together or separately) Stride being killed and the killer leaving in the space between Eagle’s return and Fanny going onto her doorstep. We can put exact times to neither but it’s entirely possible that this might have been between 12.37 and 12.42. So a gap of 5 minutes or maybe a minute or two longer. Easily enough of course.

Another scenario would be for Eagle to have returned at around 12.37, Fanny heard his step and thought they were those of a Constable. She goes onto her doorstep until around 12.55 (18 minutes or so on her step) leaving another gap of 5 minutes or so for Stride and her killer to arrive, the murder occur and the killer to flee.

I’ll state the obvious - Stride was killed and someone killed her and neither of them materialised in Dutfield’s Yard. So the above are 2 absolutely possibilities. So what about Israel Schwartz? Let’s un-delete him and see where he can fit (or not, as the case may be)

One possibility is that, as can occur with anyone, he simply got his time wrong. He’d walked along Berner Street not long before 12.30 and had seen ann incident which was entirely unconnected to later events. Then again, maybe it was Stride or maybe it was just a random woman who slightly resembled her and wore similar clothing and Schwartz, after seeing the body in the mortuary, convinced himself that it must have been the same person. And as it must have been the victim then it must have been around 12.45 (just before the body was found at 1.00) that he’d passed.

Another possibility has the incident occurring between Eagle’s return, exact time unknown, and Fanny going onto her doorstep, exact time unknown. A period that could have been from 12.37 say, to 12.45 (with Fanny mistaking BS man’s steps for a Constable’s.) An easy 8 minutes. He could have occurred in far less time of course.

The other possibility is that Fanny came onto her doorstep after Eagle had returned at around 12.37. She went back inside around 15,16,17 minutes later at 12.52, 12.53 or 12.54 leaving around 6, 7 or 8 minutes for Stride and killer to arrive, the murder to occur and the killer to leave the street. The Schwartz incident would easily fit.


After the above we are left with only one question - what the hell is the problem?


We can come up with numerous scenarios for this murder and not one of them require anyone lying or anyone to be pretending to have been anywhere that they weren’t. What draws some toward suggestions of deception? One thing is for certain - it’s not the evidence.

[c.d.]

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

That could certainly be the case but it could also be that the club itself was a complete non-factor and that for some reason he had specifically targeted Stride. So, it was kill her at the club or not at all.

Or could his original plan have been for him to get her to go somewhere else and she refused? So there were no more options.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

A strange point.

The women in the kitchen said that they heard nothing unusual; nothing that gave them any reason to stop and wonder if something untoward was going on. They were in a kitchen focused on doing whatever it was that they were doing; possibly going in and out. They would likely have been talking; maybe laughing and joking which wouldn’t be ideal for homing in on sounds coming from the street. They had men in the upstairs room singing songs that could be heard from the street. There was also a downstairs room so there was possibly men talking in there too. And you are somehow surprised that they didn’t hear or notice a woman making three not very loud sounds and a man shouting one word at a man who was just a few yards away.

If it surprises you that these women heard nothing them I’m afraid that you are easily surprised. You appear to find everyday occurrences remarkable. Things that we are all aware of as occurring day in, day out all around us you view as a miracle.

[GBinOz]

What is that supposed to mean?

I was wondering the same thing.

[Abby Normal]

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

What is that supposed to mean?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

Although officially a Socialist club - as stated by Wess at the inquest - there were both Socialist and Anarchist members, and at the time of the murders tensions between the two groups existed and would continue to grow. Perhaps a politically motivated Anarchist decided he would cause the club some trouble.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So…as I’ve always suspected and you believe that every time quoted should be taken as set-in-stone.

As long as that’s now established we can all understand the reason behind your thinking.

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

[New Waterloo]

I have thought about this before and I know its been mentioned but impotant enough to be mentioned again. Its often remarked how Mrs Diemschutz didnt her anything although the door to the downstairs was ajar.

At the inquest Diemschutz says;

I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.

I am not sure if the several members were downstairs. I assume that what he means.

They would not have been quiet I am sure

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

If we talk about him being disturbed anyone observing the scene would realise he would be disturbed much of the time. People on doorsteps, couples walking about, policemen, comings and goings, Lave exercising. He was disturbed well before going into that yard. He knew he had a tight time frame to pull this off.

He would be watching that yard, preparing his move

If it was JTR he knew what he was doing. If it was JTR who killed Stride he was no bumbling fool. He had his wits about him.

The killer is there. In that scene.

(bit like an Agatha Christie this)

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you're already 3 minutes short without another man arriving, that extra minute or two minimum is a problem on top of a problem.

I'll leave it to you and c.d. to discuss the maximum.

Again, you are so rigidly obsessed with set-in-stone times.