An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Lewis C]

Although frustrating I think the Stride case tells us so much.
i think its reasonable to suggest that one of the ‘actors’ we all discuss is the murderer.
To suggest that an unknown mystery man, not accounted for is the murderer is a stretch to far.
what does this tell us?

it tells us that if we believe that the man we know as JTR killed Stride then we have him!

Its a long list. But he is there in front of us. You know the characters.

it is easy to say well yes but we dont know which one but consider this. What it tells us is who JTR isnt.

iJTR is not Gull, a Royal, a woman, a very tall man, blotchy man, a well off man with an Astrakhan coat. Can you imagine him strutting about unseen.

The good news is that if it was JTR hes there in front of us. The bad news is if it was JTR then it kicks lots of suspects into touch!

Hi NW,

I'll agree that Stride's killer most likely was one of the people at the scene that we know about, I agree with CD and Herlock that it doesn't have yto have been one of them. If the Schwartz incident occurred either before Brown went out or while he was in the store, Brown may have gotten home at 12:51, and Stride could have been killed between then and when Diemschutz arrived.

Even if we assume that one of the people we know about was Stride's killer, I don't think it tells us much about who couldn't have been the Ripper if the Ripper was Stride's killer. It's extremely unlikely that Gull, a Royal, or a woman was the Ripper anyway. I don't know if Blotchy can be eliminated, and maybe even Astrakhan man could have dressed very differently that night. I'm a bit skeptical about A-man anyway, even as a Kelly murder suspect. I tried to think of named suspects that don't seem to fit any of the people that we know about that night, and all I could think of was that none of these people seem at all like Tumblety to me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

I have never been able to warm to the idea of the B.S. man being her killer. Too many red flags for me especially the fact that he would have had to have done so after being seen by two men. Not a smart move. And I have always thought that the cachous indicated she was at ease and that the B.S. man had left.

As for time -- I think a 15 minute window from the time the B.S. man left till the time the Ripper arrived on the scene is reasonable although that does not leave a lot of margin for error.

Time for the Ripper to arrive on the scene: 5 minutes

Time for him to approach Stride, talk to her and conclude a deal: 3 minutes

Time for entering the passageway and killing her: 3 minutes

So that is roughly eleven minutes out of an allotted fifteen. Seems enough although admittedly those are all approximations and guesses. Anybody else want to way in?

And of course, this is all assuming that the B.S. man was not her killer.

c.d.

It’s one of the reasons that I’m leaning toward BS man not being the killer c.d.

1. For me the most openly risky location of them all. Was he really going to kneel on the floor mutilating a corpse with a partially open side door and a totally open gate onto a straight just feet away? With a partially open side door might he not have thought that some guy had just left it ajar while he’d gone to the outside toilet (meaning that he might be due back at any moment?)
2. He began an attack out on the pavement with the victim ending up on the ground whereas I’d have expected the killer’s first move to have been for the throat with both hands or one hand over her mouth and one to her throat (both methods having the effect of keeping her relatively silent)
3. As you say, he’d been seen at close quarters by two men who could describe him.
4. It was the only murder where he’d been disturbed before being able to mutilate his victim (as he did with all of the others)
5. Stride didn’t ‘scream’ loudly which might indicate that she was terrified for her life (although regular beatings from clients may have dulled her sense of fear)
6. Although the murder in Mitre Square shows that the killer was at work that night it might also show that he set out to find a victim and found one in Catherine Eddowes.

Or…he was the ripper.

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

I have never been able to warm to the idea of the B.S. man being her killer. Too many red flags for me especially the fact that he would have had to have done so after being seen by two men. Not a smart move. And I have always thought that the cachous indicated she was at ease and that the B.S. man had left.

As for time -- I think a 15 minute window from the time the B.S. man left till the time the Ripper arrived on the scene is reasonable although that does not leave a lot of margin for error.

Time for the Ripper to arrive on the scene: 5 minutes

Time for him to approach Stride, talk to her and conclude a deal: 3 minutes

Time for entering the passageway and killing her: 3 minutes

So that is roughly eleven minutes out of an allotted fifteen. Seems enough although admittedly those are all approximations and guesses. Anybody else want to way in?

And of course, this is all assuming that the B.S. man was not her killer.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The reason being that there's no time or space for yet another man to arrive, engage with the victim, kill her and then leave unseen and unheard.

I have to disagree, R.D. I don't see how that possibility can be ruled out with so much certainty. We simply don't know who might have been very close by and how much time would have been required.

c.d.

I have to agree c.d.

In my opinion it’s fair to say that BS man is very strongly the likeliest killer but it’s still possible for another person to have killed her no matter how unlikely it may seem. If BS man walked away with Stride still alive we would only need a short gap of time between that point and the arrival of Diemschitz. Another scenario (and by no means am I promoting this idea - just that it’s possible) - what if Stride had agreed to meet someone in the gateway, BS man arrived and tried to get her to go with him (resulting in her ending up on the ground) but she refused and he went away. The man that she was supposed to meet was walking down Berner Street and had seen the two together. He gets jealous: “who was that?” or maybe he knew him as another potential suitor. In anger he cuts her throat. Or maybe she was pestering a married man from the club so she was waiting for him to emerge. The incident occurred, BS man left, then the man emerged from the club to be hassled by Stride. He loses his temper and cuts her throat.

Just possibles. However unlikely they might seem.

[c.d.]

The reason being that there's no time or space for yet another man to arrive, engage with the victim, kill her and then leave unseen and unheard.

I have to disagree, R.D. I don't see how that possibility can be ruled out with so much certainty. We simply don't know who might have been very close by and how much time would have been required.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Talking to BS man, the discussion continues for a short time until he killed her. If no one had come out of the club in that minute or two then he would have known that his “Lipski” hadn’t drawn attention

Talking to BS Man after he'd thrown her to ground?

Yes. Unless you are suggesting that the exertion caused him to be struck dumb? My point however was that he could have talked to her, in the gateway, after she had got up from the ground.

Can we expect to see this minute or two in your next timeline?

No need. You appear to be forgetting the original point which was about the word “Lipski” attracting someone’s attention. My point is that if, after she had got up from the pavement and Schwartz and Pipeman scarpered, a short period of time elapsed when no one exited the club to see what was going on, then he would have felt safe in the knowledge that his “Lipski” hadn’t attracted attention. I picked a minute or two at random. Thirty seconds would have been enough.

. How is it that one of the points that is constantly used against Schwartz honesty is the fact that Fanny didn’t see him (or the incident) so why shouldn’t we look at it from the other way. Why can’t we suggest that if she hadn’t seen Schwartz or Eagle or Smith or the couple or Lave or Brown then she might not have been on her doorstep for any great length of time? Might she not have been on her doorstep for only 5 minutes - enough time to see Goldstein and then lock up for the night.

Five minutes is radically different to what she claimed. Does that make you feel uneasy?

No, because clearly I’m not suggesting that she was only on her doorstep for 5 minutes (actually I should have said two) All that I’m saying, in response to your point, is that the only real evidence we have of Fanny being on her doorstep is her sighting of Goldstein. Why doesn’t it bother you that she didn’t see the Parcelman and friend or Lave or Eagle. We have no way of knowing how long she was on her doorstep but I’m sure that it couldn’t accurately be described as ‘nearly the whole time.’

I’m struggling to understand your point. The point I was making was about the risks that Schwartz would have been taking in lying about being present and witnessing the incident.

My point is that, in practice, nobody cares about the unsynchronised clock issue. Your hypothetical person looking through window is a classic example.

They clearly do because everyone agrees with it apart from you. My hypothetical person is the result of common sense. If you are going to pretend to have been in a street which you hadn’t been in you would naturally have been worried about people who might actually have been there and who could prove you a liar to the police.

. That’s a remarkable statement. The men wouldn’t have run away because of Stride’s reaction. They would have run away because of BS man’s aggressive reaction to them

I didn't say they ran off due to Stride's reaction - you just made that up.

I was responding to when you said this: “Can you really see two men running off in fear while Stride does not even make enough sound to alert the women in the kitchen?” I was making the point that they didn’t need to have run off because of what Stride said. They ran off because of what BS man said.

He was aggressive to Stride, not the men. Yet we are supposed to believe that she hung around while they ran off. The standard story is arse over head, and frankly naive. I think our 'frightened onlooker' got more involved than he cared to admit.

But he shouted “Lipski” at Schwartz not Stride. Do you consider that a friendly greeting?

The ‘standard’ story as you call it makes perfect sense unless you adopt a bit of over-imaginative ‘conspiracist’ type thinking. A man has a ‘dispute’ with a woman in which the woman ends up on the ground. He sees two men. One passing on the other side of the road but looking over at him to whom he shouts “Lipski.” The other who appears, probably from around the corner in Fairclough Street, and who is looking straight ahead at him. Schwartz leaves but we don’t know what BS man might have said to Pipeman.

[The Rookie Detective]

We have...

Parcelman
Bs man
Pipeman
Overcoat Man
Pc Smith
Charles Letchford
Leon Goldstein
Israel Schwartz
Diemschitz
Morris Eagle
Joseph Lave
James Brown
Spooner
William Marshall
Kozebrodski
Other unidentified club member

All of these men either stated they were at the scene between 12.30am-1am, were unidentified males who were within close proximity to the murder scene, or claimed they saw or heard something or someone.

One of these men was the killer

Not necessarily the Ripper, but one of them was responsible for cutting Stride's throat.

The reason being that there's no time or space for yet another man to arrive, engage with the victim, kill her and then leave unseen and unheard.

Take your pick

[New Waterloo]

Although frustrating I think the Stride case tells us so much.
i think its reasonable to suggest that one of the ‘actors’ we all discuss is the murderer.
To suggest that an unknown mystery man, not accounted for is the murderer is a stretch to far.
what does this tell us?

it tells us that if we believe that the man we know as JTR killed Stride then we have him!

Its a long list. But he is there in front of us. You know the characters.

it is easy to say well yes but we dont know which one but consider this. What it tells us is who JTR isnt.

iJTR is not Gull, a Royal, a woman, a very tall man, blotchy man, a well off man with an Astrakhan coat. Can you imagine him strutting about unseen.

The good news is that if it was JTR hes there in front of us. The bad news is if it was JTR then it kicks lots of suspects into touch!

[Tom_Wescott]

William Marshall heard it from 64 Berner St.

Marshall said he 'heard about the murder shortly after one o'clock'. That's all he said. EVERYONE heard about the murder after one o'clock. Even PC Smith eventually figured out something was amiss on his beat.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Talking to BS man, the discussion continues for a short time until he killed her. If no one had come out of the club in that minute or two then he would have known that his “Lipski” hadn’t drawn attention.

Talking to BS Man after he'd thrown her to ground?

Can we expect to see this minute or two in your next timeline?

How is it that one of the points that is constantly used against Schwartz honesty is the fact that Fanny didn’t see him (or the incident) so why shouldn’t we look at it from the other way. Why can’t we suggest that if she hadn’t seen Schwartz or Eagle or Smith or the couple or Lave or Brown then she might not have been on her doorstep for any great length of time? Might she not have been on her doorstep for only 5 minutes - enough time to see Goldstein and then lock up for the night.

Five minutes is radically different to what she claimed. Does that make you feel uneasy?

I’m struggling to understand your point. The point I was making was about the risks that Schwartz would have been taking in lying about being present and witnessing the incident.

My point is that, in practice, nobody cares about the unsynchronised clock issue. Your hypothetical person looking through window is a classic example.

That’s a remarkable statement. The men wouldn’t have run away because of Stride’s reaction. They would have run away because of BS man’s aggressive reaction to them

I didn't say they ran off due to Stride's reaction - you just made that up.

He was aggressive to Stride, not the men. Yet we are supposed to believe that she hung around while they ran off. The standard story is arse over head, and frankly naive. I think our 'frightened onlooker' got more involved than he cared to admit.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi CD, any expertise I may possess (and I claim none) doesn't appear to go very far on Stride threads. Nor do facts. But Schwartz said Stride cried out but not very loudly. If Schwartz's story is true, then so is this, and it doesn't stand to reason that anyone would have heard it or thought anything of it if they did. I'd wager BS Man's voice carried further and louder, but with the noise of the club I'd expect it all bled together in the ears of neighbors. Most neighbors didn't appear to hear Diemshitz and company crying out 'Murder!' and 'Police!'. That may be instructive.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

William Marshall heard it from 64 Berner St.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What professional translator?

And saying screamed, but not very loudly clearly shows that the amateur translator did not have the right word. Abberline wouldn't have needed even average intelligence to realize that.

Was that amateur translator also responsible for the Star account?

[Tom_Wescott]

As a reminder, we do not have Schwartz's statement. We have Swanson's condensed version. And Schwartz's statement would have been prepared by police from notes taken during an interrogation. In other words, he probably didn't qualify his own statements, but was asked follow-up questions such as 'You say she screamed. How many times? How loud was it?' Any words spoken by BS Man, Stride, or Pipeman, would not have necessarily been understood or remembered by Schwartz, except 'Lipski'. Or perhaps this was the only intelligible word spoken. From the time Schwartz crossed the street to get away from BS Man to the time he fled would have amounted to mere seconds.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Thanks, Tom. That makes a lot of sense. Appreciate it.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Response to post # 615

.
Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
We can’t assume that he intended to mutilate if he wasn’t the ripper but the fact is that we would have to consider the time between him calling out Lipski and the moment that he killed Stride. Not a huge length of time but it might have been a thirty seconds or a minute or even longer. If no one had come out of the club in response to someone shouting Lipski then he would have been confident that he was ok.

So, what is Stride doing all the while - standing there sucking cachous?

Talking to BS man, the discussion continues for a short time until he killed her. If no one had come out of the club in that minute or two then he would have known that his “Lipski” hadn’t drawn attention.

There’s no evidence that Fanny Mortimer spent any more than a minute or so on her doorstep but do you doubt that she did spend longer? We can assume that anyone might have been lying.

This is an apples and oranges comparison. We could have physical evidence for Stride being thrown down. Someone standing in a doorway doesn't leave a physical trace.

As Stride was found lying on the ground we can assume that her skirt wasn’t exactly spotless. So how could any markings/dirt caused by her being on the floor during the incident have differed from that caused by her being on the ground after she had been killed.

How is it that one of the points that is constantly used against Schwartz honesty is the fact that Fanny didn’t see him (or the incident) so why shouldn’t we look at it from the other way. Why can’t we suggest that if she hadn’t seen Schwartz or Eagle or Smith or the couple or Lave or Brown then she might not have been on her doorstep for any great length of time? Might she not have been on her doorstep for only 5 minutes - enough time to see Goldstein and then lock up for the night.

As I said, we can ‘suggest’ that any witness was lying but it gets us nowhere if there’s no evidence for it. I don’t have figures but I’d suggest that witnesses are generally truthful, if often mistaken. I’d also suggest (and I’ll happily consider any info to the contrary) that most of whatever percentage of witnesses lie usually lie for a reason. If Schwartz lied then, as far as we know, he’d have been lying for no reason. What if the two men showed up and backed each other up in that neither laid a hand on Stride? What if they found the killer and he looked nothing like BS man? What if some neighbour had been looking out of a window, unknown to Schwartz, and then came forward to prove him a liar to the police?

The police already allowed for the possibility of BS Man not being the killer. Your other options are time-based. What about all those lectures on the lack of clock and watch synchronisation? Specifically, regarding two men showing up or being arrested, we see arrests in the Star that seem to be related to a loss of confidence in Schwartz's story.

I’m struggling to understand your point. The point I was making was about the risks that Schwartz would have been taking in lying about being present and witnessing the incident.

Andrew - Can you really see two men running off in fear while Stride does not even make enough sound to alert the women in the kitchen?

Herlock - Yes

I doubt such a scenario has ever occurred in world history.

That’s a remarkable statement. The men wouldn’t have run away because of Stride’s reaction. They would have run away because of BS man’s aggressive reaction to them

It’s just how he was described but we have no proper description. He’d have had to have been a very stupid attention seeker. What if Mortimer was just a self-important busybody who only spent a couple of minutes on her doorstep? What if PC Smith wasn’t as observant as he himself might have assumed and that the woman that he’d seen wasn’t Stride? What if Eagle had asked someone at his girlfriend’s house what the time was and he’d misheard the answer?

Not sure what your point is regarding Smith or Eagle. If Mortimer only spent a couple of minutes on her doorstep, what justifies calling her a self-important busybody?

I’m just suggesting how easy it to call someone a liar, or a bit stupid, or not very observant, or not very efficient.