An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Talking to BS man, the discussion continues for a short time until he killed her. If no one had come out of the club in that minute or two then he would have known that his “Lipski” hadn’t drawn attention

Talking to BS Man after he'd thrown her to ground?

Yes. Unless you are suggesting that the exertion caused him to be struck dumb? My point however was that he could have talked to her, in the gateway, after she had got up from the ground.

Can we expect to see this minute or two in your next timeline?

No need. You appear to be forgetting the original point which was about the word “Lipski” attracting someone’s attention. My point is that if, after she had got up from the pavement and Schwartz and Pipeman scarpered, a short period of time elapsed when no one exited the club to see what was going on, then he would have felt safe in the knowledge that his “Lipski” hadn’t attracted attention. I picked a minute or two at random. Thirty seconds would have been enough.

. How is it that one of the points that is constantly used against Schwartz honesty is the fact that Fanny didn’t see him (or the incident) so why shouldn’t we look at it from the other way. Why can’t we suggest that if she hadn’t seen Schwartz or Eagle or Smith or the couple or Lave or Brown then she might not have been on her doorstep for any great length of time? Might she not have been on her doorstep for only 5 minutes - enough time to see Goldstein and then lock up for the night.

Five minutes is radically different to what she claimed. Does that make you feel uneasy?

No, because clearly I’m not suggesting that she was only on her doorstep for 5 minutes (actually I should have said two) All that I’m saying, in response to your point, is that the only real evidence we have of Fanny being on her doorstep is her sighting of Goldstein. Why doesn’t it bother you that she didn’t see the Parcelman and friend or Lave or Eagle. We have no way of knowing how long she was on her doorstep but I’m sure that it couldn’t accurately be described as ‘nearly the whole time.’

I’m struggling to understand your point. The point I was making was about the risks that Schwartz would have been taking in lying about being present and witnessing the incident.

My point is that, in practice, nobody cares about the unsynchronised clock issue. Your hypothetical person looking through window is a classic example.

They clearly do because everyone agrees with it apart from you. My hypothetical person is the result of common sense. If you are going to pretend to have been in a street which you hadn’t been in you would naturally have been worried about people who might actually have been there and who could prove you a liar to the police.

. That’s a remarkable statement. The men wouldn’t have run away because of Stride’s reaction. They would have run away because of BS man’s aggressive reaction to them

I didn't say they ran off due to Stride's reaction - you just made that up.

I was responding to when you said this: “Can you really see two men running off in fear while Stride does not even make enough sound to alert the women in the kitchen?” I was making the point that they didn’t need to have run off because of what Stride said. They ran off because of what BS man said.

He was aggressive to Stride, not the men. Yet we are supposed to believe that she hung around while they ran off. The standard story is arse over head, and frankly naive. I think our 'frightened onlooker' got more involved than he cared to admit.

But he shouted “Lipski” at Schwartz not Stride. Do you consider that a friendly greeting?

The ‘standard’ story as you call it makes perfect sense unless you adopt a bit of over-imaginative ‘conspiracist’ type thinking. A man has a ‘dispute’ with a woman in which the woman ends up on the ground. He sees two men. One passing on the other side of the road but looking over at him to whom he shouts “Lipski.” The other who appears, probably from around the corner in Fairclough Street, and who is looking straight ahead at him. Schwartz leaves but we don’t know what BS man might have said to Pipeman.

[c.d.]

The reason being that there's no time or space for yet another man to arrive, engage with the victim, kill her and then leave unseen and unheard.

I have to disagree, R.D. I don't see how that possibility can be ruled out with so much certainty. We simply don't know who might have been very close by and how much time would have been required.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The reason being that there's no time or space for yet another man to arrive, engage with the victim, kill her and then leave unseen and unheard.

I have to disagree, R.D. I don't see how that possibility can be ruled out with so much certainty. We simply don't know who might have been very close by and how much time would have been required.

c.d.

I have to agree c.d.

In my opinion it’s fair to say that BS man is very strongly the likeliest killer but it’s still possible for another person to have killed her no matter how unlikely it may seem. If BS man walked away with Stride still alive we would only need a short gap of time between that point and the arrival of Diemschitz. Another scenario (and by no means am I promoting this idea - just that it’s possible) - what if Stride had agreed to meet someone in the gateway, BS man arrived and tried to get her to go with him (resulting in her ending up on the ground) but she refused and he went away. The man that she was supposed to meet was walking down Berner Street and had seen the two together. He gets jealous: “who was that?” or maybe he knew him as another potential suitor. In anger he cuts her throat. Or maybe she was pestering a married man from the club so she was waiting for him to emerge. The incident occurred, BS man left, then the man emerged from the club to be hassled by Stride. He loses his temper and cuts her throat.

Just possibles. However unlikely they might seem.

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

I have never been able to warm to the idea of the B.S. man being her killer. Too many red flags for me especially the fact that he would have had to have done so after being seen by two men. Not a smart move. And I have always thought that the cachous indicated she was at ease and that the B.S. man had left.

As for time -- I think a 15 minute window from the time the B.S. man left till the time the Ripper arrived on the scene is reasonable although that does not leave a lot of margin for error.

Time for the Ripper to arrive on the scene: 5 minutes

Time for him to approach Stride, talk to her and conclude a deal: 3 minutes

Time for entering the passageway and killing her: 3 minutes

So that is roughly eleven minutes out of an allotted fifteen. Seems enough although admittedly those are all approximations and guesses. Anybody else want to way in?

And of course, this is all assuming that the B.S. man was not her killer.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

I have never been able to warm to the idea of the B.S. man being her killer. Too many red flags for me especially the fact that he would have had to have done so after being seen by two men. Not a smart move. And I have always thought that the cachous indicated she was at ease and that the B.S. man had left.

As for time -- I think a 15 minute window from the time the B.S. man left till the time the Ripper arrived on the scene is reasonable although that does not leave a lot of margin for error.

Time for the Ripper to arrive on the scene: 5 minutes

Time for him to approach Stride, talk to her and conclude a deal: 3 minutes

Time for entering the passageway and killing her: 3 minutes

So that is roughly eleven minutes out of an allotted fifteen. Seems enough although admittedly those are all approximations and guesses. Anybody else want to way in?

And of course, this is all assuming that the B.S. man was not her killer.

c.d.

It’s one of the reasons that I’m leaning toward BS man not being the killer c.d.

1. For me the most openly risky location of them all. Was he really going to kneel on the floor mutilating a corpse with a partially open side door and a totally open gate onto a straight just feet away? With a partially open side door might he not have thought that some guy had just left it ajar while he’d gone to the outside toilet (meaning that he might be due back at any moment?)
2. He began an attack out on the pavement with the victim ending up on the ground whereas I’d have expected the killer’s first move to have been for the throat with both hands or one hand over her mouth and one to her throat (both methods having the effect of keeping her relatively silent)
3. As you say, he’d been seen at close quarters by two men who could describe him.
4. It was the only murder where he’d been disturbed before being able to mutilate his victim (as he did with all of the others)
5. Stride didn’t ‘scream’ loudly which might indicate that she was terrified for her life (although regular beatings from clients may have dulled her sense of fear)
6. Although the murder in Mitre Square shows that the killer was at work that night it might also show that he set out to find a victim and found one in Catherine Eddowes.

Or…he was the ripper.

[Lewis C]

Although frustrating I think the Stride case tells us so much.
i think its reasonable to suggest that one of the ‘actors’ we all discuss is the murderer.
To suggest that an unknown mystery man, not accounted for is the murderer is a stretch to far.
what does this tell us?

it tells us that if we believe that the man we know as JTR killed Stride then we have him!

Its a long list. But he is there in front of us. You know the characters.

it is easy to say well yes but we dont know which one but consider this. What it tells us is who JTR isnt.

iJTR is not Gull, a Royal, a woman, a very tall man, blotchy man, a well off man with an Astrakhan coat. Can you imagine him strutting about unseen.

The good news is that if it was JTR hes there in front of us. The bad news is if it was JTR then it kicks lots of suspects into touch!

Hi NW,

I'll agree that Stride's killer most likely was one of the people at the scene that we know about, I agree with CD and Herlock that it doesn't have yto have been one of them. If the Schwartz incident occurred either before Brown went out or while he was in the store, Brown may have gotten home at 12:51, and Stride could have been killed between then and when Diemschutz arrived.

Even if we assume that one of the people we know about was Stride's killer, I don't think it tells us much about who couldn't have been the Ripper if the Ripper was Stride's killer. It's extremely unlikely that Gull, a Royal, or a woman was the Ripper anyway. I don't know if Blotchy can be eliminated, and maybe even Astrakhan man could have dressed very differently that night. I'm a bit skeptical about A-man anyway, even as a Kelly murder suspect. I tried to think of named suspects that don't seem to fit any of the people that we know about that night, and all I could think of was that none of these people seem at all like Tumblety to me.

[c.d.]

Stride didn’t ‘scream’ loudly which might indicate that she was terrified for her life (although regular beatings from clients may have dulled her sense of fear)

To me, that indicates the exact opposite. I see it as more indicative of surprise than fear.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stride didn’t ‘scream’ loudly which might indicate that she was terrified for her life (although regular beatings from clients may have dulled her sense of fear)

To me, that indicates the exact opposite. I see it as more indicative of surprise than fear.

c.d.

That should have read “..wasn’t terrified for her life..” Sorry, I should have checked before posting.

I agree. Surprise, annoyance, anger, irritation.

I have wondered in the past whether it might have been drunken horseplay? Or whether BS man said something like “come on, why don’t you come with me, you’ll be alright with me,” then he pulls her but pulls her hand free and falls. An “aargh” as she fell. An “ouch” as she landed, then an “idiot!.” Without understanding the words Schwartz might have misunderstood the situation.