Chapman’s death.

[Errata]

A blood choke takes a few seconds.

In Stride's case he applied a near naked choke from behind using his left arm.

Unfortunately you haven't read the suggested pages of A System of Legal Medicine.

I have read the attendant pages and and being choked out takes 30 seconds to a minute. The instantaneous death attributed to the Thuggee was a vasovagal reaction. A significant hit or compression to the vagus nerve (which sort of hugs the trachea) can cause cardiac arrest. It requires a very specific set of actions to a very specific part of the body. Most stranglings or hangings do not cause death in this way. They either interfere with breathing, causing asphyxia, or by interfering with the blood flow to and from the brain. And anyway I don't object to the idea that these women were strangled, manually or with their clothing. I just don't think thats how he subdued them. 30 seconds of fighting might not seem like a lot, but it will make a significant impression on the surrounding area, the victim and the strangler.

and as to the affects of asphyxia and disease to the brain, all of that occurs within the meninges. The actual structure of the brain, that is not affected. Nor does it cause edema. Something else caused that. Now the thing I forgot is that this woman, like many in her position were chronic alcoholics. That has severe effects on the structure of the brain. Never mind the affect of fetal alcohol syndrome which was a constant. However it seems that alcoholism causes a "shrinking" of the brain, and can in some cases instigate a softening of the brain, but not swelling. Remember, the blood/brain barrier exists to protect the actual brain from disease. Tuberculosis floods the meninges, but leaves the brain untouched. Her brain was unusually firm. Thats swelling. Swelling and edema means a physical injury. It would make sense to clout a victim before choking her. It would explain the signs of physical injury to the brain itself. And I'm not entirely sure what else would. Her previous altercation was a fairly light blow, not enough force to create an injury.

[DJA]

A blood choke takes two or three seconds.

Thuggees have nothing to do with it. Different technique.

No offense,but once again,you have very little grasp on these subjects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are the one who change the topic, you asked Fishy why he accepts Phillips TOD and doesn't accept him saying she was killed where she was found.

You change the topic and you ask people not to defend their opinions ??!


Incredible!!



The Baron

This isn’t changing the subject. It was about Phillips. Phillips is a part of the subject of the thread.

I asked why he believes that Phillips did something that he couldn’t have done, ie accurately estimated the TOD and yet, when it came to something much simpler, Phillips got it wrong. It’s called cherry picking. On one hand Phillips is a genius on the other he’s incompetent. It comes of picking a theory and then trying to fit the evidence to the theory.

Do i I have to explain everything to you?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Used to work with a Psychologist/Criminologist who complied with a Scotland Yard request to go over and help them out.

Wouldn't waste his time on Herlock.

Wouldn't reply myself,if I wasn't confined to bed.

Your mask of reasonableness is well and truly off I see. True colours shining through.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And you satisfy yourself by weakening Phillips who was active on the ground in spite of his experience, and yet you go all the way to defend Macnaghten who was not there, with no expeience, and who didn't do the slightest of research into his opinions.


I would like to know how you deal with your resources.


Richardson didn't enter the yard, didn't look behind the door.

Long didn't take much notice to them.

Cadosch was not sure where the voice came from.

Those are facts, those are history Mr. Begg, can you change them ?!


The Baron

This is like Mr Bean trying to educate Stephen Hawking.

Ive seen and heard it all now.

[Errata]

A blood choke takes two or three seconds.

Thuggees have nothing to do with it. Different technique.

No offense,but once again,you have very little grasp on these subjects.

Honey, I've been there. It takes about 30 seconds.

I would love to hear your description of the method of how a carotid choke hold renders unconsciousness in two seconds.

[DJA]

Your mask of reasonableness is well and truly off I see. True colours shining through.

From someone whose main interest is attacking other posters.

In my case by describing my posts as schizophrenic.

[Errata]

Honey, I've been there. It takes about 30 seconds.

I would love to hear your description of the method of how a carotid choke hold renders unconsciousness in two seconds.

I apologise. The attitude was unnecessary and embarrassing.

[DJA]

Honey, I've been there. It takes about 30 seconds.

Starting to understand why.

[Herlock Sholmes]

From someone whose main interest is attacking other posters.

In my case by describing my posts as schizophrenic.

I’ve attacked no one. Ive had to put up with endless nonsensical and insulting comments from The Baron and Fishy when all I’ve done is to look at the actual evidence. For some reason that annoys you.

[DJA]

Nope.

[Herlock Sholmes]

From The Baron who, like Fishy, spent ages mocking me when I told them that TOD estimations were unreliable and unsafe. They still do. Fishy because of his Knight obsession and The Baron because.....well, he’s The Baron

.
And you satisfy yourself by weakening Phillips who was active on the ground in spite of his experience, and yet you go all the way to defend Macnaghten who was not there, with no expeience, and who didn't do the slightest of research into his opinions.

This might annoy Dave but I prefer experts in the field:


From: Forensic Biology For The Law Enforcement Officer by Charles Grady Wilber,1974

‘The stiffening of the body or rigor mortis develops usually within an hour or two hours after death.'


Or,

From: EstimationOf Time Of Death by Ranald Munro and Helen M.C. Munro.

"The time of onset is variable but it is usually considered to appear between 1 and 6 hours (average 2-4 hours) after death.'


Or,

"Francis E. Camps stated that.Ordinarily the rigor mortis appears between 2-4 hours, but sometimes it is seen within 30 minutes of death and sometimes the onset is delayed for 6 hours or more."


Or,

"Bernard Knight described the method of testing the rigor mortis by attempting to flex or extend the joints though the whole muscle mass itself becomes hard, and finger pressure on quadriceps or pectoralis can also detect the changes. The stiffness may develop within half an hour of death or may be postponed indefinitely."


Or,

Werner Uri Spitz (1993), a German-American forensic pathologist, "reported that in temperate climate, under average condition, rigor becomes apparent within half an hour to an hour, increases progressively to a maximum within twelve hours, remains for about twelve hours and then progressively disappears within the following twelve hours."


Or,

From the English physiologist Sir Andrew Fielding Huxley (1974), who lived and worked in a temperate climate, we get this: 'the rigor mortis, which is cadaveric rigidity, starts developing within 1 to 2 hours after death and takes around 12 hours after death for complete development.'


Or,

A.K. Mant, author of 'Forensic Pathology in Great Britain': "Rigor Mortis comes on slowly and uniformly in healthier subjects and the onset is rapid in case of deaths in exercises prior to death, convulsions andsudden haemorrhage".


Or,

W.G. Aitcheson Robertson, author of 'Aids to Forensic Medicine and Toxicology', in "death followed by convulsions, muscular exertion, racing, the rigor mortis will appear earlier


Or,

Mason JK stated "The onset of rigor will be accelerated in conditions involving high ante-mortem muscle lactic acid e.g. after a struggle or other exercise.". So a struggle could bring on rigor earlier than the average, just like a cut throat


Or,

Well according to S.C. Basu, author of the Handbook of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology, rigor is "hastened or accelerated in feeble, fatigued and exhausted muscles"


Or,


What does Fisherman's own favourite expert, Jason Payne James, have to say about using rigor to estimate the time of death?


"The only use of assessing the presence or absence of rigor lies in the estimation of the time of death, and the key word here is estimation, as rigor is such a variable process that it can never provide an accurate assessment of the time of death. Extreme caution should be exercised in trying to assign a time of death based on the very subjective assessment of the degree and extent of rigor."


Or,

‘In temperate conditions rigor can commonly be detected in the face between approximately 1 hour and 4 hours and in the limbs between approximately 3 hours and 6 hours after death".


Or,

The Kori paper says: "In wasting diseases like cancer, phthisis, rigor mortis will appear early".

Notice that it doesn’t say might.

At the inquest, Phillips says she was "far advanced in disEase


Or,

From the Textbook Of Forensic Medicine And Toxicology:

The time of onset and duration of Rigor is varied by multiple factors as will be discussed shortly but in general it is likely to be apparent in about 1-2 hours after death,


Or, if you want to try the Algor Mortis argument,

From Simpson's Forensic Medicine, 13th edition (updated by Jason Payne James and others)

‘...a body is not a uniform structure: its temperature will not fall evenly and, because each body will lie in its own unique environment, each body will cool at a different speed, depending on the many factors surrounding it.'


Or,

‘...the sensible forensic pathologist will be reluctant to make any pronouncement on the time of death based on body temperature alone.'


Or,

This is why I have been repeatedly saying to you that feeling that a dead body is cold is useless for estimating time of death. Yet, unfortunately this is what Victorian medicos did. Check this paper out.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwe...2&context=jclc


Or, just in case you try the digestion argument,

Simpson's Forensic Medicine (Payne James) says "Analysis of gastric contents...cannot reliably be used to determine time of death"


Try this,

Hence, this is again from Knight's Forensic Pathology:


"In spite of the great volume of research and publications already mentioned, accuracy in estimating the time since death from temperature remains elusive. The old rule-of-thumb was that temperature fell at about 1.5degF/h, something under 1degC/h. Another rule of thumb was that the fall in degC from 37degC, plus three (to arbitrarily allow for the plateau), was equal to the time since death in hours. The only confidence that one could place in these methods was that they were almost always wrong, and that, if the answer happened to be correct, it was by chance rather than science!"

Or,

And this is from 'Corpse: Nature, Forensics, And the Struggle to Pinpoint Time of Death" by Jessica Snyder Sachs (2002):

"Seemingly overnight [in 1887], forensic doctors across Europe and the Americas embraced the idea that they could calculate post-mortem interval with pinpoint accuracy. Dropping Womack's own rather complex mathematics, they settled on the deceptively simple formula still used by many pathologists today: that of adding one hour since death for every 1.5 degree drop below normal body temperature. Over the next century, this misleading bit of arithmetic would send countless murder investigations down cold trails, set free an unknown number of killers, and conceivably spell life imprisonment - even death for a comparable number of innocents."



But of course all of these experts are wrong. I could have posted more of course. These world renowned experts and authors of standard textbooks are all wrong and Professors Fishy and Baron are correct and a Victorian Doctor could simply and magically feel a corpse and accurately estimate TOD.

Who needs logic, reason and evidence when we have posters talking about blokes carrying mutilated corpses around, when witnesses can be deemed unsafe because they show caution and when we have a genius that can deduce a blackmail scheme from the words - Will, You and Yes

Goodnight all.

[DJA]

Most of that is correct.

Basically ATP is no longer produced.

What amuses me is what Eric Berne called the Don't Make It Script.
You really can't help yourself.
Which of your parents,presumably,used to pull the rug out from under you?

Prolly both.

[FISHY1118]

i’ve attacked no one. Ive had to put up with endless nonsensical and insulting comments from the baron and fishy when all i’ve done is to look at the actual evidence. For some reason that annoys you.

the baron and fishy also had to put up with the same from you herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

Most of that is correct.

Basically ATP is no longer produced.

What amuses me is what Eric Berne called the Don't Make It Script.
You really can't help yourself.
Which of your parents,presumably,used to pull the rug out from under you?

Prolly both.

Meaningless waffle