Chapman’s death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We have a Doctor and three witnesses to consider when looking at Annie Chapman’s death. I think that gives us four possible scenarios and I would be really interested to get a feel of what posters think on this one.

[Sam Flynn]

Would have been happy to go for Option 2, but opted for the 4th instead. There was evidently something being agreed to between the man and the woman whom Long saw, and it's likely that some kind of discussion would also have to have occurred between Chapman and her killer immediately prior to her death. I doubt very much that they both spontaneously decided to head into the back yard of #29 at the same time, without some kind of verbal exchange taking place.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Would have been happy to go for Option 2, but opted for the 4th instead. There was evidently something being agreed to between the man and the woman whom Long saw, and it's likely that some kind of discussion would also have to have occurred between Chapman and her killer immediately prior to her death. I doubt very much that they both spontaneously decided to head into the back yard of #29 at the same time, without some kind of verbal exchange taking place.

This is a fair point of course Sam. I go for option 2 but with 4 being a close second. I just think it possible that she saw 2 people who weren’t Chapman and her killer. We know that eyewitnesses can often be surprisingly wrong and Chapman had no real reason to pay any particular attention to the two. She might have convinced herself that the woman that she saw was Annie. Perhaps it was her 15 minutes of fame moment? Of course the timing can be viewed as too coincidental. If Cadosch was correct then this seems to give us around 5 minutes between the killer leaving and our man and woman chatting near to number 29.

[Damaso Marte]

I think far too much brainpower has been spent on this forum trying to reconcile times given by witnesses. We should just accept that witnesses probably were either confused about the time, working off different clocks, making estimates that should not be read precisely, etc.

So I voted for #4

[Elamarna]

Nice poll Herlock, went for 4, but could go for 2.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nice poll Herlock, went for 4, but could go for 2.


Steve

Cheers Steve. I’m the other way round but with no great certainty.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think far too much brainpower has been spent on this forum trying to reconcile times given by witnesses. We should just accept that witnesses probably were either confused about the time, working off different clocks, making estimates that should not be read precisely, etc.

So I voted for #4

I agree that we shouldn’t get too hung up over times Damaso. I guess for me, when I look at Long, it’s just a case of what was she likelier to have gotten wrong, time or identification. I think that it would have been more problematic for her to have gotten the time wrong from a clock that she’d have heard every day when she was following a route that she’d have probably followed 6 days a week at the same time. I’m not implying that this is a certainty though of course.

[Sam Flynn]

I think far too much brainpower has been spent on this forum trying to reconcile times given by witnesses. We should just accept that witnesses probably were either confused about the time, working off different clocks, making estimates that should not be read precisely, etc.

So I voted for #4

I'm pretty much of the same mind. How likely is it that another couple were engaged in discussing some sort of "transaction" at ~5:30 in the morning, directly outside 29 Hanbury Street?

[drstrange169]

I went with #2, because there is some doubt that the brewery clock, chimed half hour's.
But, I do feel sorry for Phillips who, by modern day medical standards, was saying the right kind of things.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Phillips gave an honest opinion based on what was known at the time. If he was in error then it was understandable of course. There’s always a chance, however small, that a witness might lie (perhaps to gain attention for example) but this isn’t a consideration with Phillips. He was either correct or mistaken.

Disappointingly few voters so far. I know of at least two posters that would vote for Phillips being correct. Hopefully more will vote and we can get a better idea of what posters think on this subject.

[Abby Normal]

number four. Undoubtedly. cadosh and or long just off on there timings

[FISHY1118]

Long was definitely wrong, Codosch was mistaken, Phillips more likely was right . For Long to be right, jack had to be ripping Chapman open for say around 10 to 15 mins[ Dr,s estimated time to take to commit all the mutilation on Chapman] from 5.32 to 5.47. Way to light for the murder to happen with so many people getting up and about to start the day . And even more unlikely that jack started ripping Chapman to pieces while Codosch was walking up and down his fence line 4 times just two feet away again in the daylight . So yer i think Phillips was more likely correct with his t.o.d being around 4.30am. Richardson first statement to Swanson has him not sitting on the step at 4.45am only standing at the doorway looking into the yard,particularly to his right to see if the shed door was locked , so he probably had no idea Chapman was behind the open door to his left .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Long was definitely wrong, Codosch was mistaken, Phillips more likely was right . For Long to be right, jack had to be ripping Chapman open for say around 10 to 15 mins[ Dr,s estimated time to take to commit all the mutilation on Chapman] from 5.32 to 5.47. Way to light for the murder to happen with so many people getting up and about to start the day . And even more unlikely that jack started ripping Chapman to pieces while Codosch was walking up and down his fence line 4 times just two feet away again in the daylight . So yer i think Phillips was more likely correct with his t.o.d being around 4.30am. Richardson first statement to Swanson has him not sitting on the step at 4.45am only standing at the doorway looking into the yard,particularly to his right to see if the shed door was locked , so he probably had no idea Chapman was behind the open door to his left .

Chapman would have chosen the location. The killer would therefore have assumed it to have been somewhere where he would have been undisturbed. It’s about how risky he perceived the location to be. We also can’t know how much blood contamination there was but the ripper might easily have had an overcoat which he took off for the mutilations then put it back on over any bloodstained clothing before he left.

Also, do you think that serial killers only kill at night?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Long was definitely wrong, Codosch was mistaken, Phillips more likely was right . For Long to be right, jack had to be ripping Chapman open for say around 10 to 15 mins[ Dr,s estimated time to take to commit all the mutilation on Chapman] from 5.32 to 5.47. Way to light for the murder to happen with so many people getting up and about to start the day . And even more unlikely that jack started ripping Chapman to pieces while Codosch was walking up and down his fence line 4 times just two feet away again in the daylight . So yer i think Phillips was more likely correct with his t.o.d being around 4.30am. Richardson first statement to Swanson has him not sitting on the step at 4.45am only standing at the doorway looking into the yard,particularly to his right to see if the shed door was locked , so he probably had no idea Chapman was behind the open door to his left .

Why would the mutilations on Chapman have taken 2 or 3 times longer than those of Eddowes? Of course you will say that Eddowes was killed elsewhere by Gull (and you’d be completely wrong of course)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Long was definitely wrong, Codosch was mistaken, Phillips more likely was right . For Long to be right, jack had to be ripping Chapman open for say around 10 to 15 mins[ Dr,s estimated time to take to commit all the mutilation on Chapman] from 5.32 to 5.47. Way to light for the murder to happen with so many people getting up and about to start the day . And even more unlikely that jack started ripping Chapman to pieces while Codosch was walking up and down his fence line 4 times just two feet away again in the daylight . So yer i think Phillips was more likely correct with his t.o.d being around 4.30am. Richardson first statement to Swanson has him not sitting on the step at 4.45am only standing at the doorway looking into the yard,particularly to his right to see if the shed door was locked , so he probably had no idea Chapman was behind the open door to his left .

Firstly, daylight didn’t increase Cadosch’s ability to see through solid objects (like a fence).

Secondly, it’s easily conceivable that by being focused on what he was doing the killer didn’t even know that Cadosch was there. How much noise would a man make walking to the loo?