A photograph of Joseph Lawende in 1899

[jason_c]

I always took 'appearance of a sailor' to be roughly what a Victorian merchant seaman might wear. I'm not sure I'd know a 19th century merchant seaman from a Morris dancer, but a sailors appearance must have meant something to those of the LVP. The cap rjpalmer posted does kinda look what I'd imagine such a seaman might wear. Maybe because my preferred candidate isn't a sailor I assumed Lawrence's description was of a general impression rather definitively calling the man he saw a sailor. Also, I have a sneaky feeling the man Lawende saw looked physically healthier than many locals. This may have played into the sailor description.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

You say that no-one will agree with me.

Find one person on this forum that agrees with you on this point PI. That should tell you something. But you have this Sailor fixation and your trying to shoehorn everything to fit that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors.

Dealt with by Roger in #377

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.


I have produced more than a dozen illustrations of sailors wearing waist-length, loose-fitting jackets, open at the front, as I had described them.

‘Loose fitting’ doesn’t describe a style PI. It describes the coats fit. You can have a ‘loose fitting’ coat that is only loose fitting because it’s too large for the owner. If I put my jacket onto Caz or Ms D, I could then accurately describe it to you (if you couldn’t see it) as ‘loose fitting,’ but you wouldn’t be able to tell me what type of coat it was just from that description.

Try and understand this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.


It seems then that Lawende imagined it.

No. How many times does this have to be explained to you. Describing something as a ‘salt and pepper’ jacket is no better than describing a short as ‘cotton,’ or some trousers as ‘brown.’ There is no such thing as a salt and pepper jacket. You could have a jacket of that type of material but it could have been in numerous styles so it’s no more descriptive or specific than describing an items colour. Please tell me that you can understand PI. Just try Googling. You won’t find a ‘salt and pepper’ style jacket.

[rjpalmer]

"Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors."

I tend to think you're mistaken, P.I.

William Marshall, a witness at the Stride inquest, described a suspect seen in Berner Street that same night wearing:

"A round cap with a sort of peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear." (The Times, 6 October)

If you suspect a sailor, I don't know why you would be so eager to undermine your own theory by ignoring that two different witnesses that night--at two different crimes scenes--both described a man wearing a cap with a short bill, and both used the word sailor to describe the man, one specifically in reference to his headgear.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.


It seems then that Lawende imagined it.



A ‘loose’ jacket isn’t a type of jacket.

https://images.app.goo.gl/Sz6fWdJk9V7613Dr6

A Victorian era Sailors cap - and please don’t try the cop out of mentioning the insignia, they can easily be removed. It doesn’t matter where it’s from either. A hat could be bought at any market or pawnshop.

A number of witness descriptions of suspects mentioned caps, but they did not mention sailor caps nor sailor hats, let alone naval insignia.

Lawende mentioned a cap.

That has no connection with sailors.


Your point is about as reasonable as the one where you said that any Jewish man would have been readily identifiable as a Jewish man even after we had posted dozens of examples of Jewish men that didn’t look remotely Jewish.

I intend to deal with that issue shortly.

I said that Jews and gentiles were easily distinguishable in Whitechapel in 1888 and I believe I can prove that.



Please don’t talk to me again on this subject. It’s barking mad, no one else will agree with you, but you keep on about it obsessively.

I repeat……it’s a non-point. With that…I’ll hand you over to anyone else who wants the headache.



I don't think that's a fair comment.

You challenged me to produce evidence when you wrote:

Strange then that I’ve looked at around 100 photographs to date of Victorian sailors and not one of them was wearing a loose jacket.

I have produced more than a dozen illustrations of sailors wearing waist-length, loose-fitting jackets, open at the front, as I had described them.

Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors.

Moreover, the illustrations I uploaded do not even show sailors wearing caps.

You say that no-one will agree with me.

I think they will agree with me that Lawende reported that he saw a man wearing a pepper & salt colour loose jacket.

I do not think they will agree with you when you write:

You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.

The information about sailors wearing salt and pepper loose jackets comes from a Whitechapel resident.

I don't think you have a right to accuse anyone of making that up and I think most people would agree with me about that too.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.

A ‘loose’ jacket isn’t a type of jacket.

https://images.app.goo.gl/Sz6fWdJk9V7613Dr6

A Victorian era Sailors cap - and please don’t try the cop out of mentioning the insignia, they can easily be removed. It doesn’t matter where it’s from either. A hat could be bought at any market or pawnshop.

Your point is about as reasonable as the one where you said that any Jewish man would have been readily identifiable as a Jewish man even after we had posted dozens of examples of Jewish men that didn’t look remotely Jewish.

Please don’t talk to me again on this subject. It’s barking mad, no one else will agree with you, but you keep on about it obsessively.

I repeat……it’s a non-point. With that…I’ll hand you over to anyone else who wants the headache.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

A cap and a neckerchief might have given the impression to Lawende that the man had a vague appearance of a sailor but the fact of a poorly fitting jacket cannot be used.


I think you are quite obviously wrong on that point.

Anyone can see from the illustrations I have uploaded that it was common for sailors to wear waist-length, loose jackets, which were obviously not intended to be buttoned up, but NONE OF THE SAILORS IN THOSE ILLUSTRATIONS WORE A CAP.

You have repeatedly claimed an association between sailors and caps, but as far as I can see, there is not one.

Anyone can also see from the illustrations I have uploaded, as well as many others of sailors, that sailors commonly wore neckerchiefs.

I would suggest that it is clear that it was the loose jacket and neckerchief that caused Lawende to describe the man as having the appearance of a sailor, and not - as you think - the cap and neckerchief.



So……can you provide the proof that there was such a type of jacket as a salt and pepper one and that, if there was, that ‘salt and pepper’ jackets were specifically (and by name) were connected to the Navy?

Will you give a full and proper answer?



If I could provide proof, I would.

My source is someone who lived in Whitechapel and claimed to have seen sailors who wore loose waist-length pepper-and-salt jackets.

I have provided evidence that sailors wore loose waist-length jackets.

I have not so far come across salt-and-pepper ones.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have found many illustrations of sailors' jackets which were loose - i.e. they were open at the front and, except in a few cases, obviously not intended to be buttoned up.


I suggest that is obvious from the illustrations I have uploaded here.

Lawende described the suspect as having the appearance of a sailor and wearing a loose jacket.

I think anyone should be able to get my point.

And I’m absolutely certain that everyone else can see what you’re trying to do. And those recalling your posts from the last time that you were here will also be able to see the ploy. Lawende also mentioned the cap and the neckerchief. A cap and a neckerchief might have given the impression to Lawende that the man had a vague appearance of a sailor but the fact of a poorly fitting jacket cannot be used. But you try and use it. You also appear oblivious to the possibility that a man (or a woman) can have the ‘appearance’ of something without actually being it. But your saying that because Lawende said that the man had the appearance of a sailor (note that he didn’t say that he was a sailor, just that he resembled one at a distance and at night) DOSN’T mean that he actually was a sailor.

Here’s a thing PI - is there any chance of you, just for once, leaving aside the obfuscation and answering a question?

In your previous posting you tried to say that a ‘salt and pepper’ jacket was a particular type worn by sailers. I said that this wasn’t true and that ‘salt and pepper’ referred to the pattern of the cloth and that no pictures could be found anywhere of ‘salt and pepper’ jackets or of them being connected to sailors. I said that there was no such thing as a ‘salt and pepper’-type jacket. You simply wouldn’t accept it and just waffled on changing the subject just as your doing now.

So……can you provide the proof that there was such a type of jacket as a salt and pepper one and that, if there was, that ‘salt and pepper’ jackets were specifically (and by name) were connected to the Navy?

Will you give a full and proper answer?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Theres nothing to acknowledge. ‘Loose’ is not a type of coat. No shop assistant says “why style of coat are you looking for sir?” For a customer to reply “Loose.”

Thousands of different types of coat can be described as loose types and any coat ever made can be loose if it’s simply too big for the person wearing it.

You keep persisting with this non-point. Why don’t you get it.


Again…..utter silence on you ‘salt and pepper’ claims.

I have found many illustrations of sailors' jackets which were loose - i.e. they were open at the front and, except in a few cases, obviously not intended to be buttoned up.


I suggest that is obvious from the illustrations I have uploaded here.

Lawende described the suspect as having the appearance of a sailor and wearing a loose jacket.

I think anyone should be able to get my point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought you might have acknowledged by now that it was common for sailors in the nineteenth century to wear waist-length, loose jackets, which were open at the front, as I had previously stated.

I have found more than 15 such illustrations and am surprised that you could not find a single one among one hundred you viewed.

I am curious to know where you looked.

Theres nothing to acknowledge. ‘Loose’ is not a type of coat. No shop assistant says “why style of coat are you looking for sir?” For a customer to reply “Loose.”

Thousands of different types of coat can be described as loose types and any coat ever made can be loose if it’s simply too big for the person wearing it.

You keep persisting with this non-point. Why don’t you get it.


Again…..utter silence on you ‘salt and pepper’ claims.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Nothing on your ‘salt and pepper’ point from ages ago I see.

I thought you might have acknowledged by now that it was common for sailors in the nineteenth century to wear waist-length, loose jackets, which were open at the front, as I had previously stated.

I have found more than 15 such illustrations and am surprised that you could not find a single one among one hundred you viewed.

I am curious to know where you looked.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nothing on your ‘salt and pepper’ point from ages ago I see.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Yes, I can see that some did.

Thanks for your comment.

Have you by any chance seen my post # 493 to you on the thread The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose??