A photograph of Joseph Lawende in 1899

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Sailors wore waist-length, loose jackets which were open at the front, and silk neckerchiefs.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1)

Strange then that I’ve looked at around 100 photographs to date of Victorian sailors and not one of them was wearing a loose jacket.

(Herlock Shomes)


Strange then that when I looked at the illustrations on a specialist website dealing with sailors' dress in the nineteenth century, most showed them with waist-length, loose jackets which were open at the front, exactly as I had described them:











































And from some other websites:








































































































That makes a total of 13 (plus one I could not upload) - and all with waist-length, loose jackets which were open at the front, exactly as I had described a sailor's outfit.

And you looked at a hundred but could not find a single one matching my description??

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have not made anything up.

Anyone can research this subject online and see considerably more than one picture of a sailor in a loose jacket.

There are many illustrations online of nineteenth-century sailors wearing waist-length, loose jackets which are open at the front, exactly as I have described them.

I am sensing that you are not going to deny that.

Even after all this time…..nothing on your salt and pepper nonsense? Where you hoping I’d forget?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I’m sensing that you’ve found a picture of a sailor in a loose jacket it lieu of some perceived “ah” moment. But you previous claimed that sailors wore ‘salt and pepper’ jackets. Which you made up.

I have not made anything up.

Anyone can research this subject online and see considerably more than one picture of a sailor in a loose jacket.

There are many illustrations online of nineteenth-century sailors wearing waist-length, loose jackets which are open at the front, exactly as I have described them.

I am sensing that you are not going to deny that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sailors wore waist-length, loose jackets which were open at the front, and silk neckerchiefs.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1)

Strange then that I’ve looked at around 100 photographs to date of Victorian sailors and not one of them was wearing a loose jacket.

(Herlock Shomes)


Are you suggesting that I made it up again?

I’m sensing that you’ve found a picture of a sailor in a loose jacket it lieu of some perceived “ah” moment. But you previous claimed that sailors wore ‘salt and pepper’ jackets. Which you made up.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Sailors wore waist-length, loose jackets which were open at the front, and silk neckerchiefs.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1)

Strange then that I’ve looked at around 100 photographs to date of Victorian sailors and not one of them was wearing a loose jacket.

(Herlock Shomes)


Are you suggesting that I made it up again?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Deleted post

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I have been asking him to say how a sailor looks like and he didn't answer..


Wooh what do you know, as if the Kosminski described by the Police whether Aaron or not, was not an insane and sexual maniac..



TB

Where is your evidence that Aaron Kosminski or any other Kosminski in London was a sexual maniac?

[Aethelwulf]

Again, no one has ever described a man in an actual sailor's uniform anywhere in this case. Anyone could have worn a necktie.

Merchant sailors did not wear a uniform!

Then why are you making such a fuss that the necktie was part of a uniform

Like a lot of people on here, you're being a tad inflexible in your analysis in wanting every aspect of every murder and possible suspect sighting to be exactly the same.

On the contrary!

I pointed to three differences in terms of clothing and also the different build of the two suspects.

The two are far from being the same.
As before, you seem to be of the opinion the ripper had only one set of clothes. Nonsense.

Build is subjective enough to vary between witnesses. What Lawende said: 'of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak.

Sounds pretty much like the same sort of person. Height given by Lawende is highly questionable given that Levy saw the same man and said he was the same height as Eddowes. This is similar to Farmer where we have 5,7 or 5'4 and short fellow. Medium build could really be anything. Look at the other versions from different dates of Lawende's Man:

• Home Office document written in or after July 1889: "Age 30 to 35. Height 5ft. 7in., with brown hair and big moustache, dressed respectably. Wore a pea jacket, muffler and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material
• A man of thirty-five, standing 5ft 7in to 5ft 8in, rather square shoulders, clean shaven with the exception of a heavy moustache, inclining to be sandy."
• "Young, about the middle height, with a small fair moustache, dressed in something like navy serge, and with a deerstalker's cap - that is, a cap with a peak both fore and aft.

Lawende gave a good description nonetheless.

See Herlock's answer


Now compare that to what is an ideal case with Farmer's man. The assailant is observed up close by many people, in daylight, and although the descriptions clearly converge on a common theme, there are a fair few clear differences. Things like build are going to vary depending on angle of observation or clothing (e.g. a short man with broad shoulders wearing a loose jacket or cape would appear stocky), complexion and colouring by degree of light shade.


In that case, why do you accept Lawende's evidence that the man had a fair moustache?

Lawende's is the only account. Again, look at farmer, we have fair and dark. As I said, and as per one of the descriptions of Lawende's man, I think fair is probably sandy brown. None of the accounts state either man's hair colour as he wore a hat. Mustache doesn't have to be the same as hair colour and I pointed this with regard to Bury who had dark hair and facial hair described as a shade lighter and fair/inclined to be sandy.
Why not say, well, he could have had a dark moustache?


If he had a dark moustache, then he cannot have been your fair-haired suspect in the Farmer case.

See above

Let's call it a day. I can see from your exchanges with Herlock you are totally inflexible and have got yourself burrowed down a deep rabbit hole

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a very extensive list of uniforms worn by all ranks in the Navy in 1875. There is not one single mention of the word ‘neckerchief.’ There is also no mention of ‘salt and pepper’ when describing jackets/coats. None of the coats hint in any way at being loose fitting.

I forgot to add the link.

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/Navy_List_1879/Uniform_RN.html#Ratings

[Herlock Sholmes]

That was Sisyphus' original punishment, before Hades deemed it a bit too harsh.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a very extensive list of uniforms worn by all ranks in the Navy in 1875. There is not one single mention of the word ‘neckerchief.’ There is also no mention of ‘salt and pepper’ when describing jackets/coats. None of the coats hint in any way at being loose fitting.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

So you're claiming to have read all 14 thousand plus posts by Herlock?

That was Sisyphus' original punishment, before Hades deemed it a bit too harsh.

[Fiver]

I don't think the wearing of neckerchiefs had to do with vanity.

Sailors did wear them as part of their uniform.

Royal Navy sailors wore black "silks" as part of their uniform. And tight-fitting jackets.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Lawende gave a good description nonetheless.

But we have no way of verifying it’s accuracy. Whole papers have been written on how inaccurate their observations by witnesses can be. This one occurred at night, under one gas lamp, by a man who was hardly scrutinising the two people across the road. The fact that the man was a mere 10 feet away and yet Lawende still said that he wouldn’t have been able to identify him points at how closely he looked. The fact that he didn’t turn back after he’d passed showed his lack of interest in them.

The fact that he mentioned a neckerchief under these circumstances suggest that he noticed it because it was of a kind that covered his throat. Basically a neck scarf and not a type worn by sailors.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

So you're claiming to have read all 14 thousand plus posts by Herlock?

I wrote:


Why would I suggest that you had omitted to say something unless I had indeed read all your posts?


That means the same as:

I would have to read all your posts before I could say that you had omitted to say something.

I did NOT suggest that he had omitted to say something.

I did NOT claim to have read all his posts.