A photograph of Joseph Lawende in 1899

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is it a sailor's waist-length monkey jacket, with its fronts so far apart that they can hardly be buttoned up?

Nope. It’s an khaki canvas type which is much too big for me and so can certainly be described as a loose jacket.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

200% wrong.

I have a loose jacket.

Describe it to me.

Is it a sailor's waist-length monkey jacket, with its fronts so far apart that they can hardly be buttoned up?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you're the one who is talking nonsense.

Your posts are usually over-the-top and everyone here is well aware of that.

Telling someone he is 100 percent wrong is not a reasonable comment when he has done research on the subject and presented it here.

I produced 13 illustrations of sailors wearing waist-length, loose jackets, open at the front, exactly as I had previously described such a jacket, and your response was the usual ridicule.

I then quoted from two books describing the same kind of sailor jacket as loose.

That doesn't make me one hundred percent wrong and you know it.

200% wrong.

I have a loose jacket.

Describe it to me.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Well stop talking nonsense then. Your trying to force a point that no one could possibly agree with because it makes no sense. Just ask yourself “why does no one agree with me?” There’s a reason. Because you’re 100% wrong. It’s not a difference of opinion or interpretation, it’s simply a fact. You are wrong. There’s no other way of putting it. Let it go.

I think you're the one who is talking nonsense.

Your posts are usually over-the-top and everyone here is well aware of that.

Telling someone he is 100 percent wrong is not a reasonable comment when he has done research on the subject and presented it here.

I produced 13 illustrations of sailors wearing waist-length, loose jackets, open at the front, exactly as I had previously described such a jacket, and your response was the usual ridicule.

I then quoted from two books describing the same kind of sailor jacket as loose.

That doesn't make me one hundred percent wrong and you know it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do you think that your almost constant use of personal insult and deprecation are doing your credibility any favours?

Well stop talking nonsense then. Your trying to force a point that no one could possibly agree with because it makes no sense. Just ask yourself “why does no one agree with me?” There’s a reason. Because you’re 100% wrong. It’s not a difference of opinion or interpretation, it’s simply a fact. You are wrong. There’s no other way of putting it. Let it go.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

you’re really doing your credibility no favours.

Do you think that your almost constant use of personal insult and deprecation are doing your credibility any favours?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for your reply, but merely saying that someone else's post is poor is not a substitute for reasoned argument.

I could say the same about your posts, but I don't.

You’re quote isn’t relevant. It just shows an occasion where a sailor wore a ‘monkey jacket’ which was loose fitting.

Lawende only described his jacket as ‘loose.’ ‘Loose’ ins t a type of jacket. ‘Loose’ doesn’t suggest or imply a monkey jacket. At no point did Lawende say that the jacket was the reason that he felt that the man had the appearance of a sailor. At no point did Lawende say that the man was a sailor.

He simply described a man who was wearing a lose salt and pepper jacket (which has no connection to the Navy whatsoever.) Which basically meant that he was wearing a jacket, made of salt and pepper type material which was loose in fit.

Im now asking you to stop talking to me about this point PI. Unless you can find another person who agrees with you on here there’s no point in continuing. Every single person will tell you that you are simply and obviously wrong on this but you just won’t let it go. It’s like when you kept saying that salt and pepper jackets were worn by the Navy. We told you that you were wrong but you wouldn’t’ t accept it. You clearly haven’t found evidence for this because there is none. This is why you are now distancing yourself from that particular point.

You should distance yourself from this one too because you’re really doing your credibility no favours.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I’ve been a member here for nearly 6 years. My next post will be my 15000th. I’ve seen many excellent posts, many average ones, many poor ones (imo of course as other might agree or disagree on any post) and quite a few apocalyptically poor ones.

Of the latter type I can now add yours.

Absolutely jaw-droppingly poor. I can’t even bring myself to explain why this is nonsense. Please, someone tell him.

Thanks for your reply, but merely saying that someone else's post is poor is not a substitute for reasoned argument.

I could say the same about your posts, but I don't.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Engineer Lieutenant who left the Wardroom after dinner did not immediately go on deck. He went first to his cabin, where he filled and lit a pipe, and changed his mess-jacket for a comfortable loose-fitting monkey jacket.

(Naval Occasions, and Some Traits of the Sailor-man, By Bartimeus)


The illustrations I uploaded are of sailors' monkey jackets.


I described them as loose.

Bartimeus described a loose-fitting monkey jacket.

Lawende described the jacket worn by a man with the appearance of a sailor as loose.


I suggest the term loose or loose-fitting refers to the jacket not being buttoned up - and therefore tight - at the front, and not to its being oversized.

I’ve been a member here for nearly 6 years. My next post will be my 15000th. I’ve seen many excellent posts, many average ones, many poor ones (imo of course as other might agree or disagree on any post) and quite a few apocalyptically poor ones.

Of the latter type I can now add yours.

Absolutely jaw-droppingly poor. I can’t even bring myself to explain why this is nonsense. Please, someone tell him.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The Engineer Lieutenant who left the Wardroom after dinner did not immediately go on deck. He went first to his cabin, where he filled and lit a pipe, and changed his mess-jacket for a comfortable loose-fitting monkey jacket.

(Naval Occasions, and Some Traits of the Sailor-man, By Bartimeus)


The illustrations I uploaded are of sailors' monkey jackets.


I described them as loose.

Bartimeus described a loose-fitting monkey jacket.

Lawende described the jacket worn by a man with the appearance of a sailor as loose.


I suggest the term loose or loose-fitting refers to the jacket not being buttoned up - and therefore tight - at the front, and not to its being oversized.

very warm clothing will be required in passing the Cape ... a sailor's loose monkey jacket ... Sailors' jackets are very convenient on board, and a few of dark jean, made loose, will be found desirable.

(The Land of Promise: Being an Authentic and Impartial History of the Rise ...
By John Stephens)



More loose sailor's monkey jackets.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Produce someone that agrees with you on the point in question.

The Engineer Lieutenant who left the Wardroom after dinner did not immediately go on deck. He went first to his cabin, where he filled and lit a pipe, and changed his mess-jacket for a comfortable loose-fitting monkey jacket.

(Naval Occasions, and Some Traits of the Sailor-man, By Bartimeus)


The illustrations I uploaded are of sailors' monkey jackets.


I described them as loose.

Bartimeus described a loose-fitting monkey jacket.

Lawende described the jacket worn by a man with the appearance of a sailor as loose.


I suggest the term loose or loose-fitting refers to the jacket not being buttoned up - and therefore tight - at the front, and not to its being oversized.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think most people would agree with me that it should be possible to have an exchange of views without referring to padded cells or lunatic asylums.

I think they would also agree that the collection of illustrations of sailor jackets I have uploaded - whether you want to call them loose or loose-fitting - are evidence of a style of jacket which was popular among sailors.

That style of jacket was obviously not intended to be buttoned up and that meant that it was necessarily loose.

Lawende described the man as wearing a loose jacket and having the appearance of a sailor.

There is nothing farfetched about suggesting that the suspect wore a jacket of a similar style to those in the illustrations, and nothing to warrant mention of padded cells or lunatic asylums.

Unfortunately PI your examples of sailor jackets all seem to be the traditional colour - Blue. Hence navy serge jackets being a shade of blue. When Lawende said salt and pepper colour loose jacket. Google salt and pepper jackets and they all seem to be a greyish colour with perhaps flecks of white.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

Exactly Abby . I am sure that Jack would have passed himself off as someone with a few pennies and perhaps someone who would put the poor victims minds at ease.

Regards Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think most people would agree with me that it should be possible to have an exchange of views without referring to padded cells or lunatic asylums.

I think they would also agree that the collection of illustrations of sailor jackets I have uploaded - whether you want to call them loose or loose-fitting - are evidence of a style of jacket which was popular among sailors.

That style of jacket was obviously not intended to be buttoned up and that meant that it was necessarily loose.

Lawende described the man as wearing a loose jacket and having the appearance of a sailor.

There is nothing farfetched about suggesting that the suspect wore a jacket of a similar style to those in the illustrations, and nothing to warrant mention of padded cells or lunatic asylums.

Produce someone that agrees with you on the point in question.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

c

No, not a coincidence. Entirely unconnected.

ASK SOMEONE ELSE. FIND ME ONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING OUTSIDE OF A LUNATIC ASYLUM AND WHO ISN'T 4 YEARS OLD THAT AGREES WITH YOU. DONT ASK ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU CAN PRODUCE SOMEONE THAT BELIEVES THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ON THIS POINT.

I think most people would agree with me that it should be possible to have an exchange of views without referring to padded cells or lunatic asylums.

I think they would also agree that the collection of illustrations of sailor jackets I have uploaded - whether you want to call them loose or loose-fitting - are evidence of a style of jacket which was popular among sailors.

That style of jacket was obviously not intended to be buttoned up and that meant that it was necessarily loose.

Lawende described the man as wearing a loose jacket and having the appearance of a sailor.

There is nothing farfetched about suggesting that the suspect wore a jacket of a similar style to those in the illustrations, and nothing to warrant mention of padded cells or lunatic asylums.