A photograph of Joseph Lawende in 1899

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have shifted your position - haven't you?

First you claimed that Lawende said the man wore a loose-fitting jacket, but now you say it was a loose jacket.


But then you imply that it makes no difference.

it doesn’t. Loose and loose fitting mean exactly the same thing!!


I will leave readers with two questions:

If Lawende was referring only to the way the jacket fitted the man, on account of its size or his build, why did he not say it was loose-fitting?

Its like explaining the rules of backgammon to a child! If I wear a coat and I describe it as ‘loose’ it means that it’s loose fitting. For Christ’s sake PI you’ll argue that black is white. Ask someone else! Any human being you choose. Anywhere. Every single one will tell you that you’re wrong. Get the message before we all end up in a padded cell.!!!!

Is it just a coincidence that I can find so many illustrations of sailors with open jackets which obviously are designed not to be buttoned at the front, and that Lawende described the jacket as loose?

No, not a coincidence. Entirely unconnected.

ASK SOMEONE ELSE. FIND ME ONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING OUTSIDE OF A LUNATIC ASYLUM AND WHO ISN'T 4 YEARS OLD THAT AGREES WITH YOU. DONT ASK ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU CAN PRODUCE SOMEONE THAT BELIEVES THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ON THIS POINT.

[Herlock Sholmes]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

I’d say that it has to be a possibility Abby. It can’t be any stretch of the imagination to suggest that the killer would have wanted to reduce his chances of being identified. I also think that it’s worth mentioning that not only can clothing affect appearance but it can also effect a witnesses assessment of a persons build. If a guy puts on say, two or three shirts, a waistcoat, a scarf and a thick jacket to coat it might cause a slim guy to get described as stocky.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

In that case, perhaps you are looking for a theatrical person like Israel Schwartz.

But don't tell Elamarna.

It might be difficult to have Schwartz identifying himself at the Seaside Home.

[Abby Normal]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

‘Loose Jacket’ is not a style. Every single person on the planet understands this apart from you.

Tomorrow, go into any clothes shop you choose and say to the assistant: “I’d like a loose jacket.”

First, you’ll notice the slightly confused look on his or her face. Then he/she will say “do you have any particular style of loose jacket in mind?”

Then you say “ well obviously I just mean a loose jacket. Surely you can immediately picture exactly what a loose jacket looks like. You should be able to go over to the racks, pick up a jacket and say ‘here you are sir, this is the kind of jacket you asked for.”

If you can’t see and understand the problem with the point that you’re making then I give up. Ask someone else. If you find someone that agrees with you I’ll proclaim you a genius.

You have shifted your position - haven't you?

First you claimed that Lawende said the man wore a loose-fitting jacket, but now you say it was a loose jacket.

But then you imply that it makes no difference.


I will leave readers with two questions:

If Lawende was referring only to the way the jacket fitted the man, on account of its size or his build, why did he not say it was loose-fitting?

Is it just a coincidence that I can find so many illustrations of sailors with open jackets which obviously are designed not to be buttoned at the front, and that Lawende described the jacket as loose?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

‘Loose Jacket’ is not a style. Every single person on the planet understands this apart from you.

Tomorrow, go into any clothes shop you choose and say to the assistant: “I’d like a loose jacket.”

First, you’ll notice the slightly confused look on his or her face. Then he/she will say “do you have any particular style of loose jacket in mind?”

Then you say “ well obviously I just mean a loose jacket. Surely you can immediately picture exactly what a loose jacket looks like. You should be able to go over to the racks, pick up a jacket and say ‘here you are sir, this is the kind of jacket you asked for.”

If you can’t see and understand the problem with the point that you’re making then I give up. Ask someone else. If you find someone that agrees with you I’ll proclaim you a genius.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

But Lawende wasn’t making that SPECIFIC point. He just said ‘loose fitting.’ That’s all. He didn’t say “a loose fitting jacket that wasn’t designed to be buttoned and that was commonly worn by sailors,” did he?! I’m walking into a brick wall here.


Lawende did not say the jacket was loose-fitting.



Loose fitting describes the fit of the coat (as opposed to tight-fitting - which also wouldn’t describe a style of coat either) and not the style of coat.



On the contrary, Lawende described it as a loose jacket, not a loose-fitting jacket.




You are making an unwarranted assumption.



I don't think I am.

I have posted more than a dozen illustrations of loose jackets worn by sailors.

I know the idea of any reader agreeing with me is unthinkable to you, but I suggest you would have a hard time finding readers who would agree with you that all the models happened to be so stout or their jackets just happened to be so undersized that they couldn't button them up.

It was indeed a style.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Swanson:

"fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor..."

Although Swanson throws in a superfluous comma, don't you think he means the reddish handkerchief was tied in a knot around (round) his neck, rather than that the man's neck was round? Isn't everyone's neck round?

By the way--and similarly--I think 'dress' means that man was dressed in a pepper & salt jacket, not that it was a 'dress jacket'--not that anyone suggested this.

I think British people use 'round' for 'around' more often than Yanks and Canadians.

You could be right, because if Swanson had been referring to a physical feature, it would have been more natural to mention it after 'medium build'.

[rjpalmer]

I would not dream of doing to you, Abby, what Elamarna did to me and replying, Look it up.

The round neck was mentioned by Lawende, as recorded by Swanson.

Swanson:

"fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor..."

Although Swanson throws in a superfluous comma, don't you think he means the reddish handkerchief was tied in a knot around (round) his neck, rather than that the man's neck was round? Isn't everyone's neck round?

By the way--and similarly--I think 'dress' means that man was dressed in a pepper & salt jacket, not that it was a 'dress jacket'--not that anyone suggested this.

I think British people use 'round' for 'around' more often than Yanks and Canadians.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you are the one who needs to try to understand.

Anyone viewing the illustrations I uploaded can see that the jackets displayed were designed to be loose in the sense that they were open at the front and not intended to be buttoned up.

Double-breasted jackets necessarily have overlapping jacket fronts.

Standard single breasted jackets are also designed to be buttoned up.

It is quite obvious that those sailor jackets were not intended to be buttoned up, because the gap between the two jacket fronts was too large.

But Lawende wasn’t making that SPECIFIC point. He just said ‘loose fitting.’ That’s all. He didn’t say “a loose fitting jacket that wasn’t designed to be buttoned and that was commonly worn by sailors,” did he?! I’m walking into a brick wall here.

Loose fitting describes the fit of the coat (as opposed to tight-fitting - which also wouldn’t describe a style of coat either) and not the style of coat. You are making an unwarranted assumption.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

‘Loose fitting’ doesn’t describe a style PI. It describes the coats fit. You can have a ‘loose fitting’ coat that is only loose fitting because it’s too large for the owner. If I put my jacket onto Caz or Ms D, I could then accurately describe it to you (if you couldn’t see it) as ‘loose fitting,’ but you wouldn’t be able to tell me what type of coat it was just from that description.

Try and understand this.

I think you are the one who needs to try to understand.

Anyone viewing the illustrations I uploaded can see that the jackets displayed were designed to be loose in the sense that they were open at the front and not intended to be buttoned up.

Double-breasted jackets necessarily have overlapping jacket fronts.

Standard single breasted jackets are also designed to be buttoned up.

It is quite obvious that those sailor jackets were not intended to be buttoned up, because the gap between the two jacket fronts was too large.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

what is this "round neck" you speak of? lol

I would not dream of doing to you, Abby, what Elamarna did to me and replying, Look it up.

The round neck was mentioned by Lawende, as recorded by Swanson.

[Abby Normal]

Well, since we cannot see the cap that Lawende saw, it may be I am wrong and it did influence him.

Shall we say then that Lawende may have been influenced by all three items of clothing: the cap, the neckerchief, and the loose jacket?

And of course, it may be that there was something about his build or stance that suggested to Lawende that he was a sailor - perhaps including his round neck.

what is this "round neck" you speak of? lol

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors."

I tend to think you're mistaken, P.I.

William Marshall, a witness at the Stride inquest, described a suspect seen in Berner Street that same night wearing:

"A round cap with a sort of peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear." (The Times, 6 October)

If you suspect a sailor, I don't know why you would be so eager to undermine your own theory by ignoring that two different witnesses that night--at two different crimes scenes--both described a man wearing a cap with a short bill, and both used the word sailor to describe the man, one specifically in reference to his headgear.

Well, since we cannot see the cap that Lawende saw, it may be I am wrong and it did influence him.

Shall we say then that Lawende may have been influenced by all three items of clothing: the cap, the neckerchief, and the loose jacket?

And of course, it may be that there was something about his build or stance that suggested to Lawende that he was a sailor - perhaps including his round neck.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I always took 'appearance of a sailor' to be roughly what a Victorian merchant seaman might wear. I'm not sure I'd know a 19th century merchant seaman from a Morris dancer, but a sailors appearance must have meant something to those of the LVP. The cap rjpalmer posted does kinda look what I'd imagine such a seaman might wear. Maybe because my preferred candidate isn't a sailor I assumed Lawrence's description was of a general impression rather definitively calling the man he saw a sailor. Also, I have a sneaky feeling the man Lawende saw looked physically healthier than many locals. This may have played into the sailor description.

One detail which seems to escape attention is that Lawende described him as having a round neck.

I wonder whether that could have influenced him too.