The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Robert]

What a strange style - he seems to have written "and" in two different ways ('and lived at'...'and known amongst').

[Debra A]

Nice try, Jon. I still don't buy it though. They still have the appearance of two separate words joined by one pen-stroke, whereas Johnto is clearly meant to be all one word.
Plus, can you prove Abberline didn't know how to use to and too correctly?

[Wickerman]

Finally, Dave O, thankyou very much.

If ever proof was needed that the writer was in the habit of joining words together this demonstrates the fact beyond any reasonable doubt!

Please, anyone who thinks to the contrary, just count just how many times two separate words are strung together, beginning with:
- toldme (told me)
- thather (that her)
- JohnKelly (John Kelly)
- foremanof (foreman of)
- livedat (lived at).
and on, and on...

Ladies & Gentlemen, I rest my case as proven.

Regards, Jon S.

[The Good Michael]

John Bo anyone? Later to become John Boy Walton, of course.

Mike

[Debra A]

Lets not forget her father's name was John. Mary is saying that although her brother was named Henry John Joseph, he was known as "John too" (which is what Johnto meant), which to my mind makes perfect sense.
But, surprise-surprise, there are those who disagree..

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, we don't know that Mary's brother's name was really Henry John Joseph do we though? All we know is that was the alleged name of the alleged brother of the woman in the photograph alleged to be MJK, which hasn't been proven to be her yet.

I think it was me who first suggested 'Johnjo' could have been the name, after I noticed it in use as an actual name in the Irish 1901 census. At that time Chris had not revealed either the photograph or the family details that he has now.So, after our previous discussions, it was mostly tongue in cheek when I re-introduced the idea of it being 'Johnjo', to the 'relatives' thread, just on account of the coincidence of the names and maybe the fact that someone else had had exactly the same thought about the name as me...if you understand what I'm getting at?

Personally, I don't think we can ever know why it says his name was 'Johnto' until we can identify Mary and her family for definite in the records?

[Debra A]

Well, I don't know if it necessarily sheds any light, but for what it's worth re: a possible transcription error, I think that although it looks to me that the police statements included in the inquest records actually are copies made for the benefit of the coroner, according to Stewart Evans in Sourcebook, they're mostly in Abberline's handwriting (to my eyes Prater's statement is the obvious exception). If that's the case, it seems to me that a transcription error is pretty unlikely, and what the witness said is what was recorded.

Dave

Thanks very much for this, Dave.
As I have said-that was part of my doubts about John too (or two) becoming Johnto; that someone taking down Barnett's statement would have to have been a person who confuses the words 'too' and 'to', when writing and also forgot to leave a gap between the John and the to, to make it into Johnto.
Your post settles it for me.

I posted this on another thread during discussion of whether Barnett identified Mary by her "ear and eyes" or "hair and eyes", but it has some relevance here I think; Stewart showed that it clearly says 'ear' in Barnett's statement and posts another source which says specifically it was the 'peculiar shape of the ear'. Is this part of the same statement you posted, Dave?

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=39307&postcount=55

[Semper_Eadem]

Hi Semper. I enjoyed the example you gave about nicknames in the Mortimer family. I’m descended from the Percys and Mortimers of Northumberland on my mother’s side, and I found your story very interesting. That's the kind of obscure knowledge I love- Thanks!

Best regards,
Archaic

I just saw your post and PM'ed you.

[Semper_Eadem]

Thanks For sharing that Dave O, I can't see how anyone would get any transcription errors from that either. As I thought Police tended to be more careful taking statements then reporters.

In regards to the pictures of Mary and Bridget or the images reported to be them, I have seen some people express doubts due to coloring. Now coloring between even full siblings can differ drastically. So I can see those photos of Mary and Bridget being sisters even with different coloring.

My Mom was a complete towhead, folks teased my grandma all the time that my mom looked like she had gotten into a bottle of peroxide. Her sister who was just two years older was a completely different story. Dark as a gypsy.

Photographic proof for what it is worth. Both my Mom and Aunt have a Northern European heritage. I think if the lady in the photo is our Mary Kelly and she is irish then she probably is what some reffer to as dark Irish.

[Cogidubnus]

As to the name “Henry John Joseph” purported to be that of Mary’s brother, I have a suggestion as to why he would have 2 middle names. Mary's family is believed to have been Catholic. When a young adult is confirmed into the Catholic Church they choose a confirmation name based upon a saint that inspires them (in this case apparently St. Joseph), or based upon a virtue they admire (for example, my mother chose the name “Constance”).

And there's me, marrying into a Roman Catholic family, adopting three Roman Catholic children, only now remembering the oaths I took back then...nearly thirty years ago...Memories from a non-religious life - well certainly to that extent you're right!

Dave

[Dave O]

Well, I don't know if it necessarily sheds any light, but for what it's worth re: a possible transcription error, I think that although it looks to me that the police statements included in the inquest records actually are copies made for the benefit of the coroner, according to Stewart Evans in Sourcebook, they're mostly in Abberline's handwriting (to my eyes Prater's statement is the obvious exception). If that's the case, it seems to me that a transcription error is pretty unlikely, and what the witness said is what was recorded.

Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

I don't think the press were involved. If I recall correctly this quote by Barnett was from his police statement.

Hi Wickerman,

I thought this Johnjo was from a reporters statement being mis-read. Now the Police tended to be be more careful. i remember reading earlier in the thread that the lady who Chris Scott was in touch with said that Mary's brother full name was Henry John Joseph, so I though perhaps that called him John Joe and reporter taking a statments wrote the last J in Joe or Jo as a T making the name Johnto. That did happen a lot back then.

I know a little about welsh names or to be more precise medieval names but diddly squat about what nicknames were being used later on. So if you all think Mary's brother was Ianto then I will take your word for it.

Geo~

[The Grave Maurice]

Nicely recovered thread, Bunny. Thanks. Gee, I miss Gareth around here.

[Wickerman]

I think Gareth's use of "nickname" distorts the original. Barnett did not say this was a nickname, I think the words used were, "he was also known as".

If Henry was also known, or preferred to be known, by his 2nd name, John, then that is not a nickname, its a genuine given name.

The suggestion of "Yanto" disregards the reference to the father also being named John in the quote. Which must hold significance or otherwise there was no need to mention it.

Regards, Jon S.

[Archaic]

re: "Johnto"

Hi everyone.

I came across an old post by Gareth Williams (AKA "Sam Flynn") regarding the name of Mary's brother. As someone earlier on this thread mentioned the Welsh nickname “Ianto’’ I thought it might be of interest.

(From Casebook, June 3, 2005) “The one thing that convinces me that Mary's brother's name was John is the information (supplied by Barnett IIRC) that his nickname was "Johnto". This is highly suggestive of a Welsh connection.

"Ianto" was - and still is in some parts - a very common South West Welsh pet name for "Evan", "Ifan" and by extension "John" (Evan/Ifan being the Welsh equivalent of John). In North Wales (Caernarfon/Fflint) the use of the "Ianto" diminutive is less prevalent than in the South.

South East Wales (Cardiff, Merthyr/Cyfarthfa, Bedwellty) was very cosmopolitan in the latter half of the 19th Century. The Welsh language beginning to lose its grip and, apart from a few pockets of Welsh usage (e.g. in Pontypridd and Llwynypia), the use of colloquial diminutives would also have been in decline. You'd have more easily found a Sean, a Juan or a Giovanni in the Merthyr area than a Ianto at that time.

To me, the fact that "Ianto" was predominantly a South *West* Wales nickname adds some weight to the Kellys having spent some time at Carmarthen or around Carmarthenshire/Pembrokeshire, which were and are veritable "Ianto homelands" to a large extent.

Of course all this hangs on whether "Ianto Kelly" was our "Johnto Kelly". Given that "Johnto" is such an unusual form of "John" (try Googling on Ianto/Johnto and you'll see what I mean), it could well have stemmed from a journalist's or policeman's transcription error (capital J's and I's being very similar in some handwriting to this day).

If so, it's not beyond the bounds of reason that MJK's brother would have been known as "Little Ianto Kelly" - or more likely "Ianto Kelly Fach" - if he and his sister grew up in the Carmarthenshire area of South West Wales.

Of course, that doesn't preclude the family moving further East or North later, but if my equation of Ianto with Johnto is correct then the Kellys may well have spent a good few years down South when they first arrived in Wales.”


As to the name “Henry John Joseph” purported to be that of Mary’s brother, I have a suggestion as to why he would have 2 middle names. Mary's family is believed to have been Catholic. When a young adult is confirmed into the Catholic Church they choose a confirmation name based upon a saint that inspires them (in this case apparently St. Joseph), or based upon a virtue they admire (for example, my mother chose the name “Constance”).

Hi Semper. I enjoyed the example you gave about nicknames in the Mortimer family. I’m descended from the Percys and Mortimers of Northumberland on my mother’s side, and I found your story very interesting. That's the kind of obscure knowledge I love- Thanks!
You also reminded me that I've meant to research why other forebears are called "the Red Earl of Ulster" and "the Brown Earl of Ulster"... Red hair? Red face? A good tan??

Best regards,
Archaic

[Wickerman]

I think Js and T's got mixed up back then because of the way folks wrote them.

Here you have a journalist taking a statement and writing out what he hears. Then at the paper they type it up. Now if the person doing the typing isn't familiar with how that reporter wrote his Js and Ts then it is possible Johnjo became Johnto.

I don't think the press were involved. If I recall correctly this quote by Barnett was from his police statement.

Lets not forget her father's name was John. Mary is saying that although her brother was named Henry John Joseph, he was known as "John too" (which is what Johnto meant), which to my mind makes perfect sense.
But, surprise-surprise, there are those who disagree..

Regards, Jon S.