The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Cogidubnus]

Actually...She does!

Dave

[Rob Clack]

Probably,Rob...I'm such a know it all.

And when you do make a mistake you do admit it

[Debra A]

I think, knowing me and hair might have said tissue and you corrected me saying it was titian.

Rob

Probably,Rob...I'm such a know it all.

[Debra A]

Hmm, The girl with the ever changing hair, reminds me of a Beatles song, When I heard about the supposed Kelly picture, I just had to stop by and get my 2cents in...which got me posting again.

Sorry, I crossed posts with you on that one, George. It wasn't aimed specifically at you, just a general comment really about Lewis's description of MJK's dark hair. I know the fair hair description comes from the really early reports of the murder and the red probably comes from her said to be nicknamed 'ginger',does it? but which description is the most reliable I wonder?

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi George (Semper)

Good to meet you again. I am not surprised you find wrestling with the questions about this supposed photograph of Mary to be confusing. What else could it be but confusing in this most perplexing of cases. . . the subject of the identity and life story of Mary Jane Kelly who died in Miller's Court, if that really was her name, being the most elusive and worrying of all. It's hard to pin down a single fact about her let alone what she looked like and who she was.

Best regards

Chris

[Rob Clack]

Rob, I think you did originally tell me Titian and you've just forgotten now.

I think, knowing me and hair might have said tissue and you corrected me saying it was titian.

Rob

[Semper_Eadem]

Morris (Maurice) Lewis did say Mary was dark though.
I'm not saying she was, I don't know what colour hair she had, just saying what he said. He claimed he saw her in the pub on Thursday night with Dan and Julia. Joseph Barnett also said in his police statement that Mary had been drinking with his brother, Daniel on Thursday night, so Lewis did seem to know who she was.
..Unless Julia's hair was dark.

Hmm, The girl with the ever changing hair, reminds me of a Beatles song, When I heard about the supposed Kelly picture, I just had to stop by and get my 2cents in...which got me posting again.

[Debra A]

Morris (Maurice) Lewis did say Mary was dark though.
I'm not saying she was, I don't know what colour hair she had, just saying what he said. He claimed he saw her in the pub on Thursday night with Dan and Julia. Joseph Barnett also said in his police statement that Mary had been drinking with his brother, Daniel on Thursday night, so Lewis did seem to know who she was.
..Unless Julia's hair was dark.

[Semper_Eadem]

Semper (George?)-Just wanted to say hiya, nice to see you posting again.

Hi Deb

[Semper_Eadem]

Hello Semper

Welcome to the boards. I also thank you for your interesting contributions. I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that the nickname "Black Mary" referred more to her personality than her hair color. In fact, if you look at the famous photograph of her mutilated corpse, the hair looks fair rather than dark.

In the photograph under discussion of the woman in the hat, which might or might not show the Mary Kelly who was killed in Miller's Court, it's hard to see if the woman's hair actually is dark or whether the shadow from that sizable hat is obscuring the true idea of her actual hair color. In other words, the hair might be dark but it could be just the shadow that is making it appear that way.

Incidentally, isn't it interesting that just as Joe Barnett said that he recognized the corpse as Mary by her "hair and eyes" or else "ears and eyes" we are trying to do the exact same thing with this possible photograph of Mary Jane Kelly?

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris,

I remember you and your informative posts fondly from JTR Forums, it's George Lorton. I go by Semper Eadem now because I use that on other websites that I post on and I really don't have anything to plug.

I also thought that Black Mary reffered to Mary Kelly's temper, says Semper.lol Until, I saw this photo.

Now referring to a woman's coloring by her nickname is an old practice I first ran across when reading up on the Marcher Lords, namely the Mortimers of the Border Marches between England and Wales. A Ralph Mortimer married the daughter of Llywelyn Fawr, Prince of Wales who name was Gwladys Dubh, I didn't know what Dubh meant and this was in the days before the Internet, so off to the library, I later found out Dubh meant black or dark so I guess Gladys' name referred to her coloring. Mair Dubh would be what our Mary Kelly would of been called in Wales. Sorry for the rambling.

Getting back to the picture, the woman's hair looks dark under that Panama hat as I said in an earlier post in this topic and yet her eyebrows are indeed much lighter as I and few others have noted. So perhaps she was quite fair.
I have never seen the police photo of Mary in her Millers Court crypt. I once got a look at Elizabeth Short via a morgue photo and that was enough for me.

Also if this is our Mary with dark hair then she might be dark Irish. I remember somebody saying she didn't look Irish or European because of her dark looking curly hair, nonsense!!

I was watching Borgia last night and the lead Mark Ryder is Irish and his hair is dark and yet his eyebrows appear lighter then his hair. My eyebrows are lighter then my hair so perhaps we are barking up the wrong tree on that.? Fair is fair.

Now I'm on the fence again. I up and stymied myself.

I do agree with you ChrisG, that we are in the same position as the police in 1888 with this photo. Its a good thing I am just a lowly cadet.

I still wonder if the picture of Bridget and her sister got mixed up? The picture of Bridget fits the description of Mary better and so does the lighter hair, stout build and her dress fits the time period.

Geo, sometimes Semper Eadem lowly yankee cadet on the mean streets of not so White or Chapel like,East End London walking his beat with his stick at the ready and vigilant.

[Debra A]

Rob, I think you did originally tell me Titian and you've just forgotten now.

Semper (George?)-Just wanted to say hiya, nice to see you posting again.

[Rob Clack]

Hi Rob
The image I received is exactly as posted
I have sent a message to the lady who sent it to me to ask the size of the original, if there is any more to the image, if there is any studio name and/or address and if there is anything written on the back. I have also asked the same questions about the alleged Kelly family group pic.
I will let you know as soon as I get any reply
Chris

Thanks Chris,

Regards

Rob

[ChrisGeorge]

I also think so. I find it interesting too that one of Mary Kelly's nicknames is "Black Mary" which could have referred to her having dark hair and eyes. Yet, I also wonder how dark the sitter in the photos hair is in that her eyebrows are very light or look lighter then her hair.

Bah, I could go on all day nitpicking, yet what I have mentioned are what I think should be noted, that Mary was called Black Mary, which could of had something to do with her having dark hair, now, I always took it to mean that Mary had a temper, but the nickname could had something to do with Mary's coloring too. Yet to be honest Mary was also called Fair Emma too, yet she wasn't called Fair Mary but Emma so perhaps that isn't relevant unless Emma is her real name? Now I am rambling again.

Anyways if that is Mary in the photo and she was called Black Mary I say that is one of the more apt nicknames she was given then.

Hello Semper

Welcome to the boards. I also thank you for your interesting contributions. I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that the nickname "Black Mary" referred more to her personality than her hair color. In fact, if you look at the famous photograph of her mutilated corpse, the hair looks fair rather than dark.

In the photograph under discussion of the woman in the hat, which might or might not show the Mary Kelly who was killed in Miller's Court, it's hard to see if the woman's hair actually is dark or whether the shadow from that sizeable hat is obscuring the true idea of her actual hair color. In other words, the hair might be dark but it could be just the shadow that is making it appear that way.

Incidentally, isn't it interesting that just as Joe Barnett said that he recognized the corpse as Mary by her "hair and eyes" or else "ears and eyes" we are trying to do the exact same thing with this possible photograph of Mary Jane Kelly?

Cheers

Chris

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris,

No photographers name on the alleged Mary Kelly photo is there?
I'm not one for fashion trends (I thought flares and tank tops were still in fashion) so the only way I could help would be to trace the photographer.

Regards

Rob

Hi Rob
The image I received is exactly as posted
I have sent a message to the lady who sent it to me to ask the size of the original, if there is any more to the image, if there is any studio name and/or address and if there is anything written on the back. I have also asked the same questions about the alleged Kelly family group pic.
I will let you know as soon as I get any reply
Chris

[Semper_Eadem]

It's a good call Bridewell, though I wonder too about "Jonty" or "Johnty"

Agree about typesetting too...as one who used to phone last-minute bus timetable corrections to old-fashioned typesetters...agggh...don't even go there!

Regards always

Dave

I'm game for that too because of the trouble I had finding my grandpa. I was going all over the place looking at the census until I found Jorrence, right were my grandad was living and at the right age and living with my grandads folks.