The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

posted this on another thread during discussion of whether Barnett identified Mary by her "ear and eyes" or "hair and eyes", but it has some relevance here I think; Stewart showed that it clearly says 'ear' in Barnett's statement and posts another source which says specifically it was the 'peculiar shape of the ear'. Is this part of the same statement you posted, Dave?

No, it's the same file, but Barnett's statement about identifying Kelly's ear comes from the depositions taken at the inquest, which look to me to be in the handwriting of the deputy coroner, who was also a solicitor.

A quick word about inquest depositions: the thing about them is that procedure would have had them reading the deposition back to each witness for accuracy, but the caveat is that the depositions only contain information deemed to be relevant. So they may or may not reflect the entirety of what a person said.

Also, to be fair, they're not above making mistakes. I believe it was Gareth who had identified an error in Sarah Lewis' deposition over where her address was ("Powell" for "Pearl"). And the inquisition for Kelly also has one ("1" Millers Court instead of "13" for the place of death).

So I wouldn't want to claim that they're operating under a fool-proof system or anything like that, and newspaper accounts certainly have their place as helpful supplements to inquest records. When they agree, that's as golden as it gets in my limited experience, which is why I like that Tom Robinson quote that Stewart put up.

Hope that helps but I've probably only clouded the waters, eh?

Dave

No, that helps a lot Dave, thanks. I asked previously about how inquest testimony was recorded and if there could have been a mistake in taking it down but nobody answered ( I tend to be 'Billy no mates' and talk to myself a lot on casebook lately!) If it was read back then there were less likely to be mistakes I suppose.
Yes, that someone corroborated the 'ear' version by elaborating that it was said they were 'a peculiar shape' seems to back up what was recorded,even if he did get Barnett's name wrong. Tom Robinson would have to completely fabricated the 'peculiar shape' bit wouldn't he? And that would be a very odd thing to do.

Thanks for the handwriting sample too. I'm curious about the statement signed by Thick that I posted showing the same style of joining two separate words together by a single stroke. Maybe it was quite common in those days.

[Archaic]

Could the extra flourishes apparent in the writing sample provided by Dave O be merely the result of someone trying to write quickly and smoothly in an effort to keep up with the dictation of the witness?

I sometimes do that myself when I try to write too quickly and "automatically". My head sort of gets ahead of my hand and my hand writes furiously trying to keep up and not miss anything. When I go back and read it over I often find that I've added an extra loop, or an extra letter, or strung two words together. Penmanship isn't everybody's strong suit.

Or would the officer recording the deposition make a 'rough draft' during the oral dictation, then read it over afterward and make a neater final copy if he found penmanship errors?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Bridewell]

Henory

Hi All,

I read the text, as posted as:

"deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly was a foreman of some iron works at lived at Carmarthen or Carnarvon that she had a brother named Henory serving in 2nd Battn Scots Guards and known among his comrades as Johnto and I believe the Regiment is now in Ireland. She also told".

I've just checked and the Irish equivalent of Henry is apparently "Annraoi" or "Anrai". I'm just wondering if the name Henry, which looks to be spelt "Henory" or "Henroy" (there's an extra stroke which doesn't fit with "Henry") may be an attempt by the statement taker to spell, phonetically, Barnett's pronunciation of "Annraoi"?

I showed the handwritten "Johnto" word to my wife (who had no prior knowledge of the matter) and she guessed at "Johuto". (Not sure where that takes us, but it was her interpretation with no foreknowledge).

Regards, Bridewell.

Apologies for quoting my own post, but I've just searched for "Henory" as a name and found the following which alludes, admittedly, to a surname:

Henory spelling variations

In times when literacy was uncommon, names such as Henory were transcribed based on how they sounded when people's names were written in official records. This could have led to misspellings of Henory. Understanding misspellings and alternate spellings of the Henory last name are important to understanding the possible origins of the name. Last names like Henory transform in their spelling as they travel across communities, family lines, and languages across time.

I'll quit with the whole Henory thing now.

Regards, Bridewell

[Dave O]

Hi again, Debra

I'm interested in exactly who may have written it now though.

Here's the end of the police statements, which look to me to be in all the same hand with the exception of Elizabeth Prater's. The inclusion of 'Walter' above 'Inspector Beck' is in Macdonald's hand.

Dave

[Dave O]

Hi Debra,

posted this on another thread during discussion of whether Barnett identified Mary by her "ear and eyes" or "hair and eyes", but it has some relevance here I think; Stewart showed that it clearly says 'ear' in Barnett's statement and posts another source which says specifically it was the 'peculiar shape of the ear'. Is this part of the same statement you posted, Dave?

No, it's the same file, but Barnett's statement about identifying Kelly's ear comes from the depositions taken at the inquest, which look to me to be in the handwriting of the deputy coroner, who was also a solicitor.

A quick word about inquest depositions: the thing about them is that procedure would have had them reading the deposition back to each witness for accuracy, but the caveat is that the depositions only contain information deemed to be relevant. So they may or may not reflect the entirety of what a person said.

Also, to be fair, they're not above making mistakes. I believe it was Gareth who had identified an error in Sarah Lewis' deposition over where her address was ("Powell" for "Pearl"). And the inquisition for Kelly also has one ("1" Millers Court instead of "13" for the place of death).

So I wouldn't want to claim that they're operating under a fool-proof system or anything like that, and newspaper accounts certainly have their place as helpful supplements to inquest records. When they agree, that's as golden as it gets in my limited experience, which is why I like that Tom Robinson quote that Stewart put up.

Hope that helps but I've probably only clouded the waters, eh?

Dave

[Debra A]

What is proven Debs, is that the writer strung separate words together.
Prior to Dave's post, we collectively, did not know this.

Whether "Johnto-" meant "John too", or "Johnjo", or any other combination will remain uncertain. Given that the "to-" shows a clear tapering off with a tail suggests another letter was intended after the "o", because the writer was clearly not intending to join "to-" to the next word as he was at the edge of the page.

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, it seems a weak argument in handwriting that clearly has superfluous tails and flourishes on random letters. It clearly shows that separate words were strung together, yes, with long strokes of the pen, maintaining their appearance as separate words. Johnto is clearly meant to be one word.
It also looks like Bridewell's wife and Curious remain unconvinced too, if I'm not mistaken?

I'm interested in exactly who may have written it now though.

[Robert]

The 's' in 'some' and in 'she' differs from that in 'serving'. This is the kind of way I write.

[Bridewell]

Hi All,

I read the text, as posted as:

"deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly was a foreman of some iron works at lived at Carmarthen or Carnarvon that she had a brother named Henory serving in 2nd Battn Scots Guards and known among his comrades as Johnto and I believe the Regiment is now in Ireland. She also told".

I've just checked and the Irish equivalent of Henry is apparently "Annraoi" or "Anrai". I'm just wondering if the name Henry, which looks to be spelt "Henory" or "Henroy" (there's an extra stroke which doesn't fit with "Henry") may be an attempt by the statement taker to spell, phonetically, Barnett's pronunciation of "Annraoi"?

I showed the handwritten "Johnto" word to my wife (who had no prior knowledge of the matter) and she guessed at "Johuto". (Not sure where that takes us, but it was her interpretation with no foreknowledge).

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Far from proven for me, Jon. Sorry.

What is proven Debs, is that the writer strung separate words together.
Prior to Dave's post, we collectively, did not know this.

Whether "Johnto-" meant "John too", or "Johnjo", or any other combination will remain uncertain. Given that the "to-" shows a clear tapering off with a tail suggests another letter was intended after the "o", because the writer was clearly not intending to join "to-" to the next word as he was at the edge of the page.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious4]

Finally, Dave O, thankyou very much.

If ever proof was needed that the writer was in the habit of joining words together this demonstrates the fact beyond any reasonable doubt!

Please, anyone who thinks to the contrary, just count just how many times two separate words are strung together, beginning with:
- toldme (told me)
- thather (that her)
- JohnKelly (John Kelly)
- foremanof (foreman of)
- livedat (lived at).
and on, and on...

Ladies & Gentlemen, I rest my case as proven.

Regards, Jon S.

Sorry Wickerman but I think this argument can only apply to writing with a keyboard (typewriter or computer). Donīt think one is very likely to do this when writing by hand.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Thank you Archaic. Nice to get some back-up!

"Red Earl" - I would say red hair and red hands (with blood).

Best wishes,

C4

[Debra A]

Far from proven for me, Jon. Sorry.

[Wickerman]

Plus, can you prove Abberline didn't know how to use to and too correctly?

What comes across as clear Debs, is that in the word "also" on the bottom line we have an example of the writer terminating a word with an "o", with no subsequent "tail".

With "Johnto" we have the terminating "o" which also has a "tail", as often occurs when a writer is writing fast and intended "oo", but the last "o" came out distorted or even flat.
This, I think, is what we see here. The word is "too", but came out like "to-", with the final "o" elongated or tapered off flat. With the added complication that he was compressing two words before the edge of the paper.

There are several indicators even in this brief example (by Dave) that the writer was speedily taking things down.
We are only looking at "John too", as in "John, as well" (named like his father).

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

This is part of a statement signed by Abberline:

[Debra A]

The style looks very much like the handwriting 0n this statement I have, signed by William Thick ( I am not sure if he wrote it but he signed it) of H Division: