The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Cogidubnus]

Yes Rob..."titian" applied to hair generally means red...and yes semper, I agree the eyebrows look far more medium in tone, so possibly more likely to be red...(I have a red-headed daughter and grandaughter...so I ought to know!)

All the best

Dave

[Rob Clack]

Hi Rob

What's a "tissue colour"...could she have meant a "Titian colour"?

Dave

Could have. It was a few years back so I could be misremembering exactly, but it definitely sounded like tissue. I had a conversation with Debs at the time about it. And she said it was a red colour.

Rob

[Semper_Eadem]

Hi Semper

The lady in the Mary photograph does look like she has dark hair yes; but I wonder how easy it would be to tell what colour that was, exactly? Not very, I'd think; and at least part of her head would be in shadow from that hat, which would make it look darker.

Hi Sally,

True and add to that theory the sitters hair might be lighter as I said earlier, the sitter's eyebrows appear lighter then her hair.

Geo~

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Rob

What's a "tissue colour"...could she have meant a "Titian colour"?

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

I suppose, like many of us here, I'd love it to be an image of MJK...so far though, the balance of informed opinion seems to indicate to the contrary...I guess I have to remind myself to keep an open mind though, because this tale may well have a time to run yet!

Thanks Chris S for all your efforts and for sharing this with us...

I look forward to hearing anything you can raise about the photograph itself - I was impressed by the expertise shown by some posters regarding cardstock, corners etc and this may well offer the only way forward...

fascinating thread

Dave

[Rob Clack]

When Fiona Kendall did her talk at the Whitechapel Society a few years back she claimed Mary Kellys hair was a tissue colour.

Rob

[Cogidubnus]

The lady in the Mary photograph does look like she has dark hair yes; but I wonder how easy it would be to tell what colour that was, exactly? Not very, I'd think; and at least part of her head would be in shadow from that hat, which would make it look darker.

That is a very good thought...especially as the underside of the hat itself is tonally just as dark in appearance.

Dave

[Sally]

Hi Sally, Bridget's hair does look like it might be cooper red or light auburn. Perhaps Mary might not dyed her hair but lightened it or done nothing at all to her hair or this isn't our Mary? Did women tint their hair? Was hair tint cheap and readily available.

Hi Semper

The lady in the Mary photograph does look like she has dark hair yes; but I wonder how easy it would be to tell what colour that was, exactly? Not very, I'd think; and at least part of her head would be in shadow from that hat, which would make it look darker.

[Semper_Eadem]

I think Bridget's hair looks as though it might have been red - maybe if this is Mary Kelly hers was just a darker version.

I have some vague notion of seeing a facial reconstruction of Kelly somewhere - perhaps on this site? Sorry that's not very specific.

Perhaps somebody else remembers it better than I do and where to find it - I don't know how accurate that could be but maybe it'd be worth comparison with the photograph?

Just a thought.

Hi Sally, Bridget's hair does look like it might be cooper red or light auburn. Perhaps Mary might not dyed her hair but lightened it or done nothing at all to her hair or this isn't our Mary? Did women tint their hair? Was hair tint cheap and readily available.

[Sally]

Red

I think Bridget's hair looks as though it might have been red - maybe if this is Mary Kelly hers was just a darker version.

I have some vaugue notion of seeing a facial reconstruction of Kelly somewhere - perhaps on this site? Sorry that's not very specific.

Perhaps somebody else remembers it better than I do and where to find it - I don't know how accurate that could be but maybe it'd be worth comparison with the photograph?

Just a thought.

[Semper_Eadem]

I didn't know about the jacket, I find it odd that someone was referred to via nickname because an article of clothing but not a physical feature, it's possible though, all I can say is that must have been some jacket.

I still wonder if Mary Kelly was her real name. Perhaps the sitter in the photo is our Mary Kelly yet not a real Mary Kelly.

As for hair it could of indeed have been a dark chestnut that photographed dark and that, Mary dyed later on. Perhaps, to give Joseph Fleming the slip or an old pimp or maybe dyed just to solicit more business? Do McCarthy's son know a dyed haired woman when he saw one?

Too many questions about Mary.

I say that I think the sitter's hat is a man's panama hat. I bet she slapped a feather on it to give it a feminine air.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Semper,
Kelly's nicknames are several.they include Black Mary, Fair Emma, and ginger.
Black Mary, appears to have been a reference to her clothes, especially her dark velvet jacket, which she often wore.
Ginger appears to been a reference to her hair colouring which apparently was red very distinctive according to Young McCarthy, although it may have been a reference to her liking for ginger beer.?[ found in her room]
The reference to fair Emma is unknown , although a fair complexion is a educated guess, but why Emma, unless it was a term used at the time, reflecting features. like 'fair as a lily' as a resident described her.
Regards Richard.

[Semper_Eadem]

Hi,
I would suggest that John-Joe is a good bet, it certainly fits the Henry who was the brother in the Scots guards, the relation that received all of Mary's belongings, which may have included this photograph.
It sure is a coincidence that his middle names are John Joseph, if all of this is authentic, it looks like major developments are in store.
Regards Richard.

I also think so. I find it interesting too that one of Mary Kelly's nicknames is "Black Mary" which could have referred to her having dark hair and eyes. Yet, I also wonder how dark the sitter in the photos hair is in that her eyebrows are very light or look lighter then her hair.

Bah, I could go on all day nitpicking, yet what I have mentioned are what I think should be noted, that Mary was called Black Mary, which could of had something to do with her having dark hair, now, I always took it to mean that Mary had a temper, but the nickname could had something to do with Mary's coloring too. Yet to be honest Mary was also called Fair Emma too, yet she wasn't called Fair Mary but Emma so perhaps that isn't relevant unless Emma is her real name? Now I am rambling again.

Anyways if that is Mary in the photo and she was called Black Mary I say that is one of the more apt nicknames she was given then.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that John-Joe is a good bet, it certainly fits the Henry who was the brother in the Scots guards, the relation that received all of Mary's belongings, which may have included this photograph.
It sure is a coincidence that his middle names are John Joseph, if all of this is authentic, it looks like major developments are in store.
Regards Richard.

[Semper_Eadem]

I think Js and T's got mixed up back then because of the way folks wrote them.

Here you have a journalist taking a statement and writing out what he hears. Then at the paper they type it up. Now if the person doing the typing isn't familiar with how that reporter wrote his Js and Ts then it is possible Johnjo became Johnto.

The same thing happened with my grandfathers first name Torrence on the 1930 federal census. It became Jorrence, it was a real pain trying to find him believe me.