The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Livia]

Hi Chris,

Great find and thanks to you and the family for sharing.

I'd be interested to know how the present day members
of this family learned of the history of these photos. Not
specifics as to names and locations, but just the circumstances
of how the story came down through the family. Did they
grow up knowing the history, overhear snippets as children
and were then told the story later when they reached adulthood?
Or was it ever written down in a letter or family Bible? That
sort of thing.

Thanks for your efforts in bringing this to all of us. As with everyone
else, I'll miss your contributions to both boards.

Liv

[lynn cates]

anticipation

Hello Chis. Then I shall look forward to that.

Good luck!

Cheers.
LC

[Chris Scott]

I have been in touch with the sender of this image and have asked her for any information she can give
She told me that she thinks there would be no objection to posting the full Kelly family photo but I will wait for final confirmation of that before I do so
The reason behind this change of heart regarding both pictures has not been told to me explicitly but reading between the lines there has recently been the death in the family of an older member and I would guess it was this person who was the source of the objection
If and when I can post the family group I will start a new thread
Chris

[Henry Flower]

Yes you are, Dave.

[Cogidubnus]

Regarding Barnett having the Deposition read back to him. I have to add that it would make sense for the officer to read back the deposition to Barnett, but I wonder if Barnett really heard what the officer read back to him as there might of been a lot of people about talking and then Barnett did have a lot going through his mind no doubt poor guy. Barnett also might of been rushed.

I'm with you on that George...I suspect he was gutted...(and no I'm not being funny)...

All the best

Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

I see what you are saying but the writer did manage a longer stroke to differentiate the words he joined though, George.
The joined words are still recogniseable as separate words, whereas 'Johnto' isn't.
I had to use a 'dippy' wooden ink pen with metal nib and bottle of Quink ink at Junior school and I'm not that old either.

Of course you aren't, I've used them myself as my great aunt had my great grandfather's set. I was about 13 and messing around with them, talk about a mess, I would of never made good grades with a splotty dotty mess I handed in. Of course if that was all you had to write which it pretty much was for these fellows then I could see them writing really adept at it really quick. I have to say that looking at the statement or deposition it looks neatly written.

All,

Regarding Barnett having the Deposition read back to him. I have to add that it would make sense for the officer to read back the deposition to Barnett, but I wonder if Barnett really heard what the officer read back to him as there might of been a lot of people about talking and then Barnett did have a lot going through his mind no doubt poor guy. Barnett also might of been rushed.

I know from my time on JTR Forums that someone posted an article that stated that Barnett was still distraught sometime after Kelly's murder. Seems a reporter ran across him and had an argument as Barnett did not like how he was portrayed by the press, which I have ran across before studying titanic, which has a lot of angry folks from the ship upset with the press, so the bit about Barnett stuck. (I guess someone must of read to Barnett or told him what the press was saying about him if he was illiterate.)

Some of you would probably say that Barnett was more worried about how he was portrayed in by the press but I think he was still distraught over Kelly's end and what folks thought of her and him, maybe hurt his feelings to be portrayed as an instrument or enabler of her fall, which is understandable.

Anyways sounds to me as if he was distraught for quite some time so he might not of paid close attention to the officer reading back his statement. I don't mean to add sticks to the fire I just want to make sure we are through.

[Cogidubnus]

I see what you are saying but the writer did manage a longer stroke to differentiate the words he joined though, George.
The joined words are still recogniseable as separate words, whereas 'Johnto' isn't.
I had to use a 'dippy' wooden ink pen with metal nib and bottle of Quink ink at Junior school and I'm not that old either.

Yes I thought so too Debra...and I too learned with a dippy pen and Quink...biro was "sloppy" and totally forbidden...and alas (7 years from retirement) I may be THAT old....

Cheers

Dave

[Bridewell]

me "Ianto" and gave him a playful variation of it, "Johnto"?

As for the witness deposition procedure, wasn't there a police procedure in which the officer taking the dictation read it back to the witness at the end? Or if the witness was literate was he handed the report to read for himself?

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic,

To the best of my knowledge that still applies. I used to give the person I was taking a statement from the choice, "Would you like to read through the statement, or would you rather I read it to you?". It enables someone who can't read to avoid the embarrassment of saying so.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

I wonder if that might not be case Deb given the ink pens they were using which was basically a bottle and stick of wood with a piece of metal on the end to hold the ink. I think they had to write fast before their ink dried up and they had to re dip their pen in the ink bottle to continue writing so I could see a writer accidental writing two words as one. Unless they took their witness depositions in with pencils and not pens?

Geo~

I see what you are saying but the writer did manage a longer stroke to differentiate the words he joined though, George.
The joined words are still recogniseable as separate words, whereas 'Johnto' isn't.
I had to use a 'dippy' wooden ink pen with metal nib and bottle of Quink ink at Junior school and I'm not that old either.

[Archaic]

It looks to me that "Johnto" has been written as one word deliberately, whereas "Henry" has been written more like "Henrry" because the penman was going too fast. He wrote his "n" and his "r" in two different styles which are quite difficult to render quickly in cursive. The "r" is written as the plain "r" used in letter-block printing. I write my "r's" like that, and have often made the mistake of adding an additional letter when writing too fast. (Try writing it out for yourself; you'll see it's rather awkward.)

Somebody mentioned that it says that Mary's brother was called Johnto "in the regiment". That doesn't tell us if he was called that at home, but it certainly doesn't indicate that he wasn't and only got the nickname later in life. It doesn't tell us either way.

Wherever he first got the nickname, couldn't it have been because they were familiar with the Welsh nickname "Ianto" and gave him a playful variation of it, "Johnto"?

As for the witness deposition procedure, wasn't there a police procedure in which the officer taking the dictation read it back to the witness at the end? Or if the witness was literate was he handed the report to read for himself?

Barnett must have been in a terrible state. I can understand him missing a few subtle transcription errors within the deposition, particularly if he was expected to read it over for himself. He must have been in a deep state of grief and emotional exhaustion, especially after having to describe his identification of Mary's poor brutalized body. It's not surprising if he was a bit "glazed over" at the end.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Semper_Eadem]

Thanks for the handwriting sample too. I'm curious about the statement signed by Thick that I posted showing the same style of joining two separate words together by a single stroke. Maybe it was quite common in those days.

I wonder if that might not be case Deb given the ink pens they were using which was basically a bottle and stick of wood with a piece of metal on the end to hold the ink. I think they had to write fast before their ink dried up and they had to re dip their pen in the ink bottle to continue writing so I could see a writer accidental writing two words as one. Unless they took their witness depositions in with pencils and not pens?

Geo~

[Debra A]

Thanks Bridewell. I've sent you a PM.

[Bridewell]

Clarification

Thanks, Dave.
It might simply be that the convict inquiry statements my sample comes from were not written by the person that signed them as looking again-before the signature it says-Officer who carried out inquiry.
It looks like Abberline maybe wrote the one I posted and Thick signed it as the officer doing the inquiry. That seems the simple answer.

Hi Debra,

I don't know for certain if the practise in the late 19th century was the same as in the late 20th, but the signatures at the bottom of a non-police witness statement would ordinarily be that of the person whose statement it was and that of the police officer who took it down. A police officer would be expected to record his (or her) own statement, so you would either have the same signature twice or, more usually in practise, the officer's signature and "Self-recorded" in lieu of a second signature. It would be unusual, in my experience, for one police officer to write a statement and another to sign it,

(Apologies if I have misunderstood your meaning here).

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Thanks, Dave.
It might simply be that the convict inquiry statements my sample comes from were not written by the person that signed them as looking again-before the signature it says-Officer who carried out inquiry.
It looks like Abberline maybe wrote the one I posted and Thick signed it as the officer doing the inquiry. That seems the simple answer.

[Dave O]

Hi Debra,

Yes, it's odd. What you posted from Thick sure does look similar. But then you have the reference to 'myself' above Abberline's signature. I don't have the experience with their handwriting or police procedure to know the right of it, whether Abberline sat down and wrote this out himself or had Thick or someone else to do it, and then he just signed it. I guess a second person was involved writing down Prater's police statement, I don't know why it's like that.

Anyway, I'll duck out. Interested in what turns up about this photograph and how the debate on all this other stuff turns out.

Best,
Daveto/Davejo/Dave too/Dave to